An Editorial

[bandkbrooks]

Greetings everyone,

I love pipes. I love everything about pipes (except that whole “could make you sick” thingy). I love to get on this forum and learn about “everything pipe”.

My morning routine is get up, do some chores (after the coffee is started of course), pour said coffee, and drink. I read for some personal growth. I read for some spiritual growth. I check email. I check facebook. I check pipemakersforum.com. I learn on many fronts this way.


At the risk of completely alienating my self here goes.

Be mindful that this in no way related to anyone’s response or comment to me.

So here’s my dilemma. This morning I looked at some older posts and moved to newer ones eventually. The pattern I see is this, some of the people on this forum are so argumentative, are such instigators of conflict that I am finding it hard to enjoy the forum. I realize that it is my choice to continue surfing the site. I will continue to do so because I think the good out weighs the bad. This morning however, I stumbled upon an older post that made me furious. I didn’t even enjoy working on my newer pipes this morning. I debated over and over whether or not to say anything at all. The passionate side of me won out.

This attitude was not limited to one thread. I won’t share links and I refuse to share user names out of respect for all parties. The way some of us, and I include myself as I am no angel, speak to each other is deplorable. There is no excuse for the hostile nature of some of the conversations. Not one of us has the right to speak to each other in a derogatory manner. I personally don’t care how much experience someone has or what new insightful idea someone has come up with if you can’t be civil. You have no right to act in such a disrespectful manner. What on Earth give you the attitude of entitlement to behave that way? We are all humans. Not one of us is better than the other so don’t act like a know-it-all smart-a$$.

I personally come here to learn and be critiqued not criticized. If you don’t know the fundamental difference between them, don’t do either. If you see someone that is looking for help, asking for help, in need of review then please do it in a civil manner. I certainly wouldn’t ever post a comment about someone’s work and tell them that it “sucks”. Grow up. Use your big boy words and give some insightful help. Do you really want to be the one that completely discourages a new pipe maker or a new idea?

I used to teach. Both my parents were teachers. Let me tell you that there is nothing worse than seeing someone interested in learning only to be shot down by some arrogant experienced ass or a newbie that thinks that their crap doesn’t smell. If I wanted to deal with either out of choice I would go back to college for the former and then to a bar to meet 20 year old “chicks” for the latter.

I personally don’t care what your day was like if you think it entitles you to act like a jerk when you get on this forum. We all have bad days. We all have moods. Get over it before you get on this site. I do care if you need to commiserate or need a positive moment in your day. I’m not all touchy feely let’s everyone hug and all will be right with the world, but I sure don’t want to come on here to see hostility and petty bickering. I can deal with people I already know or watch politicians for that.

Some of us have day jobs. Some of us are hobbyists. Some of us are gifted craftsmen and artisans. Let’s all try to remember one key thing. We make pipes…. We don’t do brain surgery, we aren’t cardiologists, we aren’t teachers, we aren’t salesmen, we aren’t the everyman, we aren’t anything of any critical importance in the world when it comes down to pipes. We make pipes. We could all get wiped off the face of the Earth tomorrow and no one, NO ONE would bat an eye in the long run.

Some of the more experienced guys forget that new people are impressionable. Like it or not, you ARE a role model. People look to you for advice, encouragement and help.

Think about it in these terms. I worked in the music industry in some form or another for many years. I was fortunate enough to go to an event honoring several people including one of my favorite drummers. This was an event with a lot of people that would want to shake a hand or get an autograph. I got to meet my idol. I wish I hadn’t. I wasn’t interrupting his dinner, approaching him on the street, etc. I was at a party honoring him and he was walking around at the event. I asked him for an autograph (which I rarely do to anyone) and he obliged. I asked him if I could also get a picture with him. He responded with a sarcastic, exasperated, you are annoying me “I suppose….”. I was mortified. Crushed? No. I’m a big boy. I will still listen to/watch him play. I don’t ever want to meet him again. Like it or not fellas, you men of tenure are role models. Suck it up and be civil.

Hey, know-it-all newbies. Some of you don’t respect the men of excellence in this craft. Some times it’s better to shut your mouth and listen respectfully to what others have to say. I’m almost 40 and if I can’t learn by listening then I am doing things wrong. Some of our professors here have been doing this longer than you are old.

If you are ever unsure what to say, remember it is better to keep one’s mouth shut and be thought a fool (jerk) than to open it and remove all doubt.

The brotherhood of the pipe? Indeed. The dysfunctional family of the pipe seems all too likely at times.

[DMI]

Well my friend what can I say, most of the points you have raised have been mentioned before but not quite so succinctly. I am irregular poster but do spend at great deal of time using the search facility, and have to agree that some of the conversations are not inspiring. One thing I have seen over time is that the people who are guilty of this are also the ones who will take time to answer another point fully and completely or give a very accurate critique of a pipe.

As an ex teacher you will know that not everyone can teach, be it the stress, poor control of voice or the inability to put the information over in such a way that it can be easily taken in.

Many of the people on this forum are friends and often bicker among themselves, it can be amusing.

Meeting your idols is often a bad experience, I worked in the rock music (photography)and filmmaking business (historical leather-worker) for nearly 25 years and met many of the 'greats', most were pretty nice people who had good days and bad, and then there were the assholes.

Whilst a certain respect is due to the 'Professors', for after all they are the ones at the top of the tree, there is sometimes a hint of 'this how I do it so you should too'. But listening to only your professors limits your learning potential, you won't try different ideas or approaches or admit to other fields of opinion.

Many pipe makers are dysfunctional so why are you surprised it shows up?

David

[bandkbrooks]

Thank you for replying/posting. Oh, I'm not surprised at all. I just get disheartened by bad attitudes. They can quickly and negatively affect others. It takes an equal amount of effort to critique as is does to be critical. I just wish that more people would realize it.

[Sasquatch]

Sorry Brandon, but big-time pipemakers like me don't have time to write big long responses to little twerps like you.

On one hand, this is a bit like pipe maker's university - come to class or don't - no one gives a crap either way, really. Some of the professors are more patient, more kindly, more whatever than others, and that's just how life is.

On the other hand, it is VERY intimidating to spend any time here "amongst" a group of professionals who all know each other, have met (some frequently) face to face, and basically have a fairly long history with one another. We're creeping in, poking our head in the door at the meeting, so to speak, and trying not to trip over our shoelaces as we show off the crap we just made. It's a tough go for the newbie, and a very boring go for the "teacher". How many "Is this a billiard yet?" sort of things does a guy have to suffer??

And yet to come here and suffer, for both master and apprentice, is voluntary. There is no vested interest in any established maker helping anyone else become an established maker. Quite the opposite, really. And yet here they are helping us out, telling us what sandblasting media to try (right Kurt? Right buddy? Kurt?), how to shape things, how to proportion things....

It's not a real pleasant ride, and there are definitely clique-y moments, and there is definitely a "school" at play, with certain fairly definable tenets. All a guy can do is learn whether he agrees or not, and do what he thinks is right. If you want to make pipes from cork and feathers.... knock yourself out. Nobody has told me I drill too big, or make pipes too large, or use too much airplane glue, or .. whatever. But when I make a pipe that's ugly (or just unusual), I'll hear, and that's why I post.

[DMI]

Criticising is far easier than critiqueing a piece of work, one requires an input the other doesn't.

I for one rarely comment on other peoples work, when I do I try and be helpful but rarely say anything directly about the pipe. This is because I can have difficulty choosing how to say 'ok here's what you can do to improve the pipe' and the less subtle 'what a mess but, if you do this this and this, we might be able to save it'. If you don't know the pupil how can you know which method works best or how they will react to the wrong approach.

In a similar vein new members should spend a lot of time going through the archives, it takes getting used to and can be a bit broad but you can find a lot of the basics and more advanced techniques if you take the time to look. Granted with this being an international group language can sometimes be a problem ( as can American spelling, colour).

Sasquacth, for some it is annoying when the same questions get asked over and over again, there are times when it is obvious that no attempt at research has been done. Certain topics have been discussed in depth not that long ago hint hint, I'm sure there was mention of glass, oxides and sand hint hint I'm sure if you used the search box you'd find them hint hint

David.

[Tyler]

Sorry you are having a bad time of it here.

While there have been some unfriendly moments in the forum, this is just a group of people like all groups of people. There are some strong personalities, some trouble makers, and some people that are the ones that keep you coming back. (Sometimes the same person is all three!)

Realize that there is a lot of history here between a lot of friends. Some of the offensive posts you read have a lot of history. Sometimes there has been a longstanding feud. Other times there is longstanding sarcasm that runs so deep it might not be apparent without knowledge of the history of the relationship.

In the end though, like in most friendly gatherings (and that is most certainly what this is), if you want to be "in" then just jump. There are no secret handshakes or gilded invitations. Involve yourself to the degree you want and you will be welcomed.

Stick around. It's a good bunch.

Tyler

[Sasquatch]

You mean the secret handshake Rad taught me is bullshit? I'm gonna kill him.

DMI, for what it's worth, I raked and combed and absolutely stripped this place of both sandblasting and oil curing knowledge long before I did either. Kurt and I were having a little chat about my new rig, is all. But now I see that all he wanted was to steal my setup because he was so impressed with my blast. It's cool.

[bandkbrooks]

I have no problem with good natured ribbing. I relish it. I am a percussionist by training. If you can deal/take it as a drummer you'll never make it.

My issue was merely with civility. I am not actually having a bad time of it. No nastiness has been directed at me whatsoever. I'm just disappointed in some forum member's treatment of others.

Sas, you always give me a constructive critique even going as far as diagramming what I needed to see:



Thank you for going above and beyond.

[NathanA]

The beauty of a forum like this is that so many diverse backgrounds, skill levels and personalities are represented and respected, at least by most, I think. The downside is that this sort of communication is notorious for miscommunication. Without being able to see the person and without knowing their particular personality or sense of humor, you only have half the picture. Some people are aware of how they come off in print form and I think that everyone must be given the benefit of the doubt.

For my two cents, and many might disagree with me here, I prefer a more direct approach to problem solving. Not naming name seems really PC but, in my opinion, it cause as many problems as it solves. If I have acted inappropriately I want to be called out on it so I can make amends not try to figure out if this general statement applies to me or not. If you have someone specific in mind, talk to them directly. As you have pointed out, an adult should be able to give criticism appropriately and an adult should be able to accept criticism appropriately. My guess is that no one here has such a big ego that they are unwilling to admit a mistake, although I could be wrong about that. I just think that the more open a problem is the easier it can be fixed.

FWIW, if I am one of the newbies whose crap doesn't smell (I am sure my wife would attest otherwise), I apologize.

[bandkbrooks]

Nathan,

You have in no way offended me and I respect you for making a thoughtful reply. I didn't name names / share links because I don't want to start a riot. Also, some times for the people that need to hear you aren't being civil the most, it falls on deaf ears anyway. Believe me I don't hold back when necessity strikes. I have a friend that I helped train for his current job. He got a little big for his britches and started acting like a dick. I called him out on it and said "You are acting like a dick". The point was made but I know him personally. I don't think it my place to be the "don't be a dick police". I am just not that combative any more. I wanted merely to make a social commentary.

Everyone has a right to an opinion. It's the delivery that sometimes is lacking in social decorum.
B2

[baweaverpipes]

My issue was merely with civility.

Well, I just have to say that I am not fond of a single person here and I'll call names.
Rad has been mean to me and thinks I'm a hillbilly.
Todd, well, he's just dismissive.
Kurt thinks he's a big shot because he can make knives as well as pipes. WOOOO!
Sasquatch makes fun of me and hurts my feelings.
Magruder said some disparaging remarks to me, when he was last here.
Reflecting back, I will say that my only two buddies on here have been Mike Messer and Random.
Now, regarding your pipe. What I saw was a festering boil with pus dripping down the sides, while being lanced by a voodoo shaman.

[Sasquatch]

Sorry for lashing out at you Bruce. I have a very small penis.

Hug?

[bandkbrooks]

Now see here Bruce! I have had the fortune of meeting you and I know that you mean every word you say.

That was hilarious but I feel the need to correct you and set the record straight. I never ever use pus. I only use the fromunda cheese from a sweaty over weight construction worker for my pipes. (Fromunda Cheese? If you have to ask...you don't want to know). Pus starts to taste to tart rather quickly. The cheese is rancid right from the beginning.

(The voodoo shaman was the best part. Funny and very specific).

Ok, I've had my rant. I'm with Sas. Hugs everyone? I'll bring the crumpets. Bruce brings the tea. Sas brings the fine china.

XXXOOO

[KurtHuhn]

Now, regarding your pipe. What I saw was a festering boil with pus dripping down the sides, while being lanced by a voodoo shaman.

Using one of my knives.

[KurtHuhn]

My issue was merely with civility.

I think that, by and large, we tend to be rather civil. Compared to some other online venues, this is pretty much a safe haven. In my recall, there have really only been a handful of episodes over the course of the forum that have really turned nasty. The biggest problem children don't even come around anymore.

Disagreements between makers can sometimes look nasty to the initiated, but that's usually because of the passion that both have for their craft. Every time you mix that passion with a minor misunderstanding of wording or intent, you can spark a bit of a fire. It's usually best to treat it like my half Italian wife - get it out of your system right then and there, then open a bottle of wine and forget about it.

[baweaverpipes]

The biggest problem children don't even come around anymore.

Todd is still here

[ToddJohnson]

Brandon,

I don't think you're wrong necessarily, but I'm not sure you have enough perspective to deliver a reprimand to an entire community of people who have been arguing certain points for considerably longer than you've been making pipes. Sometimes things get heated. Sometimes we lose our tempers. Sometimes we say things we regret and apologize. Sometimes guys like Mike Messer show up and a few of us go apoplectic.

We do all know each other, and with that comes the privilege of abandoning "civility" on certain occasions to get our points across. I will go to my grave thinking that Brian Ruthenburg is an obtuse buffoon for putting buttermilk and sour cream in his pipes, and he will probably go to his grave insistent that I have poisoned hundreds of people with my own bowl coating. The thing is, Brian and I have known each other for probably a decade. If an opportunity comes up, we help each other, we share information, and look out for one another's interests. We also sit around and have drinks three or four times a year, and we don't revisit this stuff. It's dead . . . except for some archived words on an archived page that have apparently caused you distress.

This is a community like any other, warts and all. As you correctly noted, it's not your job to act as the "you're being a dick" police. The basis for issuing such a reprimand is an established relationship, and I could be wrong, but I don't think that's anything you have with most of the folks here.

With respect to the distinction between "critique" and "criticism," I have a few thoughts. To be candid--and I think I can speak for most of the established pipemakers here--our actual thoughts on most of what gets posted in the "Gallery" range from "holy mother of Buddha that is awful" to "you should never be allowed to touch another block of briar for as long as it exists on Earth as a species." Now I've never actually seen that written, which speaks to the degree of restraint that's typically exercised here. I don't comment a lot in the gallery because my comments would be something like "burn it" or "find a different hobby." This is harsh, I know, but asking for a "critique" of something that can only loosely be qualified as a pipe doesn't really work. What typically goes on in the Gallery is that one group of people who know very little about what a pipe should be offer opinions to someone else who knows very little about what a pipe should be. For the guys that do know how to offer criticism (constructive or otherwise) there's often either very little to say or too much to say to make it worth their time.

Among the couple hundred people who make pipes here, only a handful might emerge as pipemakers of any note. That's just the way it is. Not everyone has the skill, or commitment or innate talent to get where they're trying to go. It serves no one's interests for the more skilled carvers to offer encouragement to the guys who are basically carving rubbish. Once the pipes get bette--and they will if you work at it--there's more opportunity for us to comment and offer helpful hints, but until that time, just keep carving pipes until they get better. The creative aspects of an artistic endeavor are not especially intellectual and there's no formula to follow. Knowing what a beautiful pipe should look like is simple enough. There are lots of them out there. Find one and try to make your pipes look like that. If you can't recognize where you're missing the mark--or worse yet, if you consistently try to defend your mistakes--then no amount of constructive criticism on a single pipe is going to be helpful. That's like trying to train yourself to be a pastry chef by following the recipe on a box of brownie mix over and over again.

Long story short, we try to be helpful when we figure it may be worth our time. Sometimes we argue with one another, sometimes we are brutish, and sometimes you're only getting part of the story by reading our public correspondence. There is a lot to learn by reading this forum, and everybody has something to contribute. It may not be all rainbows and unicorns, but that's just part of it. Your moral indignation is noted, and hopefully it will contribute to greater civility here.

That said, I stand by my opinion that Bruce Weaver is a despicable old geezer with an IQ of ~55.

Sincerely,

Todd

[NathanA]

Todd,
I appreciate your candor and I have a few questions. And I am not trying to be an ass, I am asking these in all seriousness.

1)What do you consider a "pipemaker of any note"? Does it have to be someone who sells their pipes for thousands like you or can it also be someone who sells consistently in the 100-200 dollar range?

2)At what point did you consider yourself to have it figured out, both in terms of number of years making pipes and the number of pipes made? Was your first pipe a certified masterpiece or did it end up in the junk heap?

The reason that I ask is that I have no aspirations of being a master artist. I don't believe I have that innate artistic talent you were talking about. But I do believe (maybe mistakenly) that I have the determination and the ability to learn and adapt so that I might someday be able to make quality pipes that, hopefully, will make the hobby pay for itself and maybe one day be a source of some extra cash, but certainly not as a sole profession.

So I guess what I am driving at is two-fold. First, you have seen my posted pipes. I know the first few were bad, but I think I have made progress. Am I one of the ones who legitimately is wasting his time? (You can be honest, I won't be hurt. And even if you told me to quit I would probably continue just for my own benefit because I love the process, whether Todd Johnson wants to smoke one or not.) And second, what learning curve timeline should one reasonably adopt? If after a couple of years pros like yourself are still not commenting because the pipes are so bad and there is just too much to criticize, is it time to jump the shark?

Thanks for the advice.

[DMI]

Sasquatch, I know you did and do but size is not important it's what you do with it.

Todd, newbies teaching newbies reinforces bad practice and it can save a lot of time if they are told at the start to re-think what they are doing, I for one would have appreciated more comments on the pipes I have posted, part of the appeal of this group is that big name makers can see and pass comment on your work. But remember people may not want to make pipes like a master or follow a particular school, some of us want to be different and find our own way in the world. If Walle were a newbie what would you say about Frieda?

I've been making pipes for a year now and am far from being happy with most of what I do, my customers are happy though so I must be doing something right. So having sold 90 odd handmades does it qualify me to pass comment? I'm not sure. I love every pipe I make, even the ones that never get sold for whatever reason, but other makers might not like them or see what they consider faults or mistakes.

Nathan you posted while I was typing and I would echoe your questions. But for question one I've yet to sell a pipe for $100, which is kind of depressing, and for two I hope I never stop learning.

David

[bandkbrooks]

Now see, this is a good and mostly constructive discussion.
This was merely and editorial and not a reprimand to an entire community. It was critical of a few instances that show a lack of manners at times and I’m not referring to the occasional ribbing, hazing, etc. I agree with you mostly Todd. I know I don’t have a right to reprimand an entire community. I do have the right to an opinion and to be able to express those thoughts. In the process of expressing those thoughts did I think I was going to piss off some people? Yes. Did I think some would agree? Yes. Do I think anyone now hates me and won’t go get a beer (or that really nice bourbon I promised you and didn’t deliver on) with me? No. We’re all family or we wouldn’t be here. Some of us are still toddlers and some of us are Todd-lers.
My real concern is not for me. I’ve taken shots before. I’ll take them again. I use 120 grit on my skin every other day so when it grows back it’s thicker. Then on the weekend I sand all the way down to 1000. That’s why I have that beautiful sheen. I mainly spoke out of concern for perhaps a new person coming on this forum. Mostly what I was referring to were very caustic comments, toxic comments that could destroy a new person’s desire to be on this site.

What typically goes on in the Gallery is that one group of people who know very little about what a pipe should be offer opinions to someone else who knows very little about what a pipe should be. For the guys that do know how to offer criticism (constructive or otherwise) there's often either very little to say or too much to say to make it worth their time.

I think this is completely the wrong attitude. If I were a top notch pipe maker and someone asked me for an opinion / help I would certainly oblige.

It serves no one's interests for the more skilled carvers to offer encouragement to the guys who are basically carving rubbish. Once the pipes get bette--and they will if you work at it--there's more opportunity for us to comment and offer helpful hints, but until that time, just keep carving pipes until they get better.

So how are these new pipe makers that are carving “rubbish” supposed to know what to do to get better if pipe makers of note don’t help? How do any of us know that the “rubbish maker” won’t turn out to be the best pipe maker ever, but didn’t because no one offered any advice because they were too busy.

The creative aspects of an artistic endeavor are not especially intellectual and there's no formula to follow. Knowing what a beautiful pipe should look like is simple enough. There are lots of them out there. Find one and try to make your pipes look like that. If you can't recognize where you're missing the mark--or worse yet, if you consistently try to defend your mistakes--then no amount of constructive criticism on a single pipe is going to be helpful.

If there’s no formula to follow why go get an excellently crafted pipe and try to copy it? That’s contradictory at best. Every musician has to study basic scales to know the building blocks of music. Scales are formulaic (basically simple audible math). This is true of any artform. It's why students want to study/apprentice under a particular artist. Learning the basics are very formulaic Knowing what a beautiful pipe looks like is one thing but execution is another. Why wouldn’t we want to see and help someone’s initial rubbish become better.

I appreciate you responding and well…frankly would have been disappointed had you not.

I hope I haven’t completely alienated myself from anyone in particular. Even with points we don’t agree on and given the chance would I still come watch you again? Absolutely. Families disagree and as eclectic a lot a group of pipe makers are, we are definitely dysfunctional. If we all got along all the time, then Bruce and I would hold hands skip through the park and Sas would cavort around showing his childlike penis that he mentioned.

I didn’t intend to piss off a few people. My intent was to piss off everyone. I guess I failed.
Seriously though guys I really do appreciate the lively discussion.

I will post some atrocities I’ve committed using some stummels I got from Skip Elliot soon. Bruce, I took this as the learning experience we discussed in how to “fix” mistakes. I did a lot of fixin’.

Hugs & Kisses . Now, everyone back to sanding.
Yours Truly,
B2