Can a Master have limitations

Tano · Post by **Tano** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 6:51 pm

Hi Guys,
I've often wondered. Can a Master pipemaker have limitations? To be a master must you be able to make all styles of pipes, such as bull dogs, calabashes, bamboos just to name a fiew?

Post by **KurtHuhn** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 6:58 pm

Loaded question alert!

Frank · Post by **Frank** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 7:36 pm

I don't think the title "Master" is dependant on your being able to flawlessly execute any and every shape or stlye within the Craft.

Back in the "thick penny" days when Artisan and Crafts Guilds were the only "in" into the craft, you were judged by other Masters to be awarded that title.

Nowadays, you're judged by your peers and, sadly, rank amateurs with barely an iota of knowledge on the subject, as to whether your work qualifies as Masterful or not. Many folks award themselves the title of Master, whether they deserve it or not.

Post by **KurtHuhn** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 7:55 pm

Frank wrote:Back in the "thick penny" days when Artisan and Crafts Guilds were the only "in" into the craft, you were judged by other Masters to be awarded that title.

For some crafts, that still exists - knife making actually has two organizations - both the American Bladesmith Society and The Knifemaker's Guild. One of these days I may submit my work to one or both for judging.

Sasquatch · Post by **Sasquatch** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 8:09 pm

Technical certificate notwithstanding, "mastership" indicates a deep level of experience and ability in a craft. This doesn't mean that all masters know exactly the same stuff, or would even tackle identical situations in identical ways. It means that a guy is full of skill and knowledge, and is probably better at his worst thing that a newbie at his best thing.

I would be VERY surprised if there was a really gifted pipe maker who couldn't just pop out whatever pipe you asked of him. Is it his specialty? Not necessarily. But I can't imagine a qualified guy saying "Oh geez, a rhodesian? I can't really do those."

A master can also bring solutions to problems from other areas (this is the difference between the really experienced guy and the newbie). Certain "insoluble" problems just melt away with the right guy on the job.

Frank · Post by **Frank** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 8:14 pm

KurtHuhn wrote:
Frank wrote:Back in the "thick penny" days when Artisan and Crafts Guilds were the only "in" into the craft, you were judged by other Masters to be awarded that title.
For some crafts, that still exists - knife making actually has two organizations - both the American Bladesmith Society and The Knifemaker's Guild. One of these days I may submit my work to one or both for judging.

Interestingly, that goes along with my last paragraph which stems from experience in the blade crafting area. A so-called bladesmith that I knew made the remark, in print, that he was a Master. I was very familiar with his work and knew that his work barely qualified as "Journeyman". I responded, in the same publication, using a similar argument as above. This was followed up in that publication by yet another bladesmith claiming that he too considered himself a Master and required no confirmation from Guild or peers. I was also well familiar with his work, but I decided to let the matter drop. Suffice it to say that in the knifemaking world, he could make the equivalent of a technically perfect billiard, but it lacked the "soul" to be great.

Post by **KurtHuhn** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 9:16 pm

I consider myself a master of nothing except IT Systems Administration (specifically UNIX) - but I also have about 20 years experience in the field. If you pressed me, I'd say I know a "quite a bit" of both pipe making and knife making.

Okay, maybe parenting too. So far my kids have turned out pretty damned good.

But, like I said, when I get comfortable enough, I plan on submitting my work to the The Knifemakers Guild for review. We'll see how I do.

Frank · Post by **Frank** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 9:35 pm

Kurt, the knifemaking story wasn't an oblique critique of your knifemaking or your view of yourself as a knifemaker. It was meant to illustrate the point I was trying to make of "Self Proclaimed Master" as opposed to "Peer Bestowed Master", without maligning those who truly are entitled to call themselves Master. Truth be told, your knife work is light years ahead of the first guy I mentioned, and artistically much more inspired than the second guy.

FredS · Post by **FredS** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 1:02 am

I once worked as an apprentice baiter on a charter boat. I did it for 20 months and never could work my way up to master baiter.

alan · Post by **alan** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 8:59 am

lol nice...

Post by **KurtHuhn** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 9:45 am

Frank wrote:Kurt, the knifemaking story wasn't an oblique critique of your knifemaking or your view of yourself as a knifemaker. It was meant to illustrate the point I was trying to make of "Self Proclaimed Master" as opposed to "Peer Bestowed Master", without maligning those who truly are entitled to call themselves Master.

Thank you, Frank - that's precisely the spirit I took it in.

I recall an exchange on a knife making forum a couple years ago where one guy was maligning the ABS as a useless exercise in self gratification, and proclaimed that he didn't need peer review to tell him he *was* a master. It was explained to him what the ABS process meant, and why it was considered useful, in particular the "fit and finish" portion of the review process. He cockily responded with some photos and said "Gee, ya think I pass?". The answer, from an ABS Mastersmith, came as one word - "No.". And it was obvious - unfortunately obvious.

Truth be told, your knife work is light years ahead of the first guy I mentioned, and artistically much more inspired than the second guy.

Thank you!

After Alan Longmire showed off his Seax, I decided to start sketching out my own in the broken back style. I don't know if I can do the sheath well - but we'll find out! It will give me a chance to couple woodwork and steelwork in one project.

ToddJohnson · Post by **ToddJohnson** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 11:46 am

Certainly a master can have limitations. Jess Chonowitsch who is absolutely a master of his craft probably could not do something like this:

[img]http://pipedia.org/images/thumb/2/28/KE ... Pipe05.jpg[/img]

It doesn't make him any less of a "master" though.

Todd

geigerpipes · Post by **geigerpipes** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 12:05 pm

To get back to the original question..Imo no..

What I define as a pipe “Master” is one that both masters the technical sides of execution of pipes as well as being able to imbue his own unique style on any pipe he chooses to make. And that style publicly is recognized as being aesthetically pleasing and easily recognisable by most collectors. Of cource to get there one needs to explore and understand the different shapes and teqniques that are popular and define what a pipe is..

I do not think any of us frequenting this forum can claim the master title yet.. even though there are a handful of very skilled artisans here.
But that’s just my humble opinion

Tano · Post by **Tano** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 12:49 pm

geigerpipes wrote:To get back to the original question..Imo no..

What I define as a pipe “Master” is one that both masters the technical sides of execution of pipes as well as being able to imbue his own unique style on any pipe he chooses to make. And that style publicly is recognized as being aesthetically pleasing and easily recognisable by most collectors. Of cource to get there one needs to explore and understand the different shapes and teqniques that are popular and define what a pipe is..

I do not think any of us frequenting this forum can claim the master title yet.. even though there are a handful of very skilled artisans here.
But that’s just my humble opinion

So, now I pose the question to all of you. In your humble opinion, who do you look up to as a" Master" in the pipe making world?

JimBridger · Post by **JimBridger** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 2:21 pm

Tom Eltang and Trevor Talbert.

pipeyeti · Post by **pipeyeti** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 4:24 pm

ToddJohnson wrote:Certainly a master can have limitations. Jess Chonowitsch who is absolutely a master of his craft probably could not do something like this:

[img]http://pipedia.org/images/thumb/2/28/KE ... Pipe05.jpg[/img]

It doesn't make him any less of a "master" though.

Todd

Todd I would disagree with you. I'll bet that Jess could do that shape if he wanted to. Its just not his style.

ToddJohnson · Post by **ToddJohnson** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 4:59 pm

pipeyeti wrote:Todd I would disagree with you. I'll bet that Jess could do that shape if he wanted to. Its just not his style.

Yes, that's usually the argument that's made. I'm not going to argue publicly and adamantly that Jess could not make that pipe because the specifics of a particular carver and a particular shape are largely irrelevant to my point. Jess is also a personal friend to whom no disrespect was intended. Suffice it to say, though, that certain carvers are limited in scope by their actual skill sets. Those that carve pipes professionally, or have made hundreds or thousands of them, know the difference between very skilled pipe-making and actual sculpture. Some makers are capable of the former and not the latter, a smaller number are capable of the latter but not really the former, and an even smaller number are capable of both. Teddy would be a good example.

Todd

pipeyeti · Post by **pipeyeti** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 5:29 pm

ToddJohnson wrote:
pipeyeti wrote:Todd I would disagree with you. I'll bet that Jess could do that shape if he wanted to. Its just not his style.
Yes, that's usually the argument that's made. I'm not going to argue publicly and adamantly that Jess could not make that pipe because the specifics of a particular carver and a particular shape are largely irrelevant to my point. Jess is also a personal friend to whom no disrespect was intended. Suffice it to say, though, that certain carvers are limited in scope by their actual skill sets. Those that carve pipes professionally, or have made hundreds or thousands of them, know the difference between very skilled pipe-making and actual sculpture. Some makers are capable of the former and not the latter, a smaller number are capable of the latter but not really the former, and an even smaller number are capable of both. Teddy would be a good example.

Todd

If you don't want to discuss publicly why bring your example up at all?

Ryan · Post by **Ryan** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 5:44 pm

DING DING...

jeff · Post by **jeff** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 5:50 pm

pipeyeti wrote:
ToddJohnson wrote:
pipeyeti wrote:Todd I would disagree with you. I'll bet that Jess could do that shape if he wanted to. Its just not his style.
Yes, that's usually the argument that's made. I'm not going to argue publicly and adamantly that Jess could not make that pipe because the specifics of a particular carver and a particular shape are largely irrelevant to my point. Jess is also a personal friend to whom no disrespect was intended. Suffice it to say, though, that certain carvers are limited in scope by their actual skill sets. Those that carve pipes professionally, or have made hundreds or thousands of them, know the difference between very skilled pipe-making and actual sculpture. Some makers are capable of the former and not the latter, a smaller number are capable of the latter but not really the former, and an even smaller number are capable of both. Teddy would be a good example.

Todd
If you don't want to discuss publicly why bring your example up at all?

Because it illustrates his point. There is no point considering each and every maker that could or couldn't do something like that. The point is that Mastery need not suggest that the person's skill set is limitless. Mastery indicates a mastery of the craft, not of all applicable crafts.

As Todd said, individual makers are irrelevant to this discussion. We're talking conceptually about Mastery. That would be, by my definition and for the lack of a true guild or organization to review achievement, when an individual has reached a certain level of craftsmanship that is more or less universally acknowledged existing pipe masters. Notice too, that I have neglected to include the word of the market because I believe that its voice is largely ignorant of what mastery involves.

Jeff

Addendum: It has come to my attention that the preceding has been confusing to some. To be clear, the word "ignorant" is not intended in its pejorative sense, but simply as a statement of fact--that being that most in the marketplace lack sufficient knowledge of both the technical and/or aesthetic elements of pipe making to be qualified as a judge of mastery. I am not intending to elevate myself by suggesting or implying that I do possess such knowledge either. Lars, Jess, Tom, and others would surely look down their noses at the presumptuousness of such a young bloke as I, were that the case.