A Discussion of Files

pierredekat · Post by **pierredekat** » Thu Apr 24, 2008 8:56 am

This morning I started looking around for file sources, as I had been buying whole sets of needle files, using a single one until it was dull, and then tossing the rest of the set on a shelf to languish until I found some other need for it.

Seemed to me that there had to be someplace where I could buy 10 of the desired size and shape of needle file without having to buy 100 needle files I had little or no use for.

And that launched me into a whole file research project.

So, now that I have gathered a little bit of information, I started thinking that it might be good for us to accumulate our information for future reference.

The kind of needle file I use for shaping the airway through my bits is called a "warding" file. According to Wikipedia, "Warding files are parallel in thickness, tapered in width, and thin. Like a hand or flat file that comes to a point on the end. Used for flat work and slotting."

And yes, you can buy a warding needle file, individually, in a variety of cuts. Grobet, which markets both Grobet and Valtitan brands of needle files -- grades their cuts by numbers: 0, 2, 4, and 6, starting from coarsest to finest.

These can run anywhere from $5-15 apiece, depending on special design criteria that dictate what kinds of materials the file is designed to cut. Of course, for cutting rubber/plastic, the cheaper files will do the trick.

You can also buy an even cheaper individual warding needle file for $1.43 from Widget Supply. I have also found this company handy for Dremel stuff, etc.

For stummels and shaping outside of the stem, I have been buying sets of "4-inch" (the length of the cut) "American pattern" (kindof a "bastard" cut, I guess) files from Nicholson.

I used to be able to get the 6-piece set from Lowes for around $20, but the last time I bought a set, Lowes only had a 4-piece set for around $15. Fortunately, the 4-piece set has everything I need: a flat file, a half-round file, and a little rattail.

Anyway, I snooped around on Ebay to see if they have this particular file set there, and didn't have much luck. But I did find a good source for the Grobet needle files I was after.

So what files do you use? Which ones do you find useful? Are there any I'm not aware of but should be?

Frank · Post by **Frank** » Thu Apr 24, 2008 2:38 pm

Good on you Robert.

I just received my order of 8" Nicholson files. I'm still not sure which cut works best on Vulcanite and ABS, so I ordered one of each. I'll be running the "safe edge" over my belt grinder just to ensure it's really "safe".

This got me thinking that I needed a new needle warding file, without all the extras in a set. I'll be going with a few of the Grobets from the eBay site you posted. Hopefully they warrant the extra cost over the Excels.

I haven't ordered these yet, but they look handy for smearing the slot/slit: http://www.ares-server.com/Ares/Ares.as ... t&ID=81847

pierredekat · Post by **pierredekat** » Thu Apr 24, 2008 3:39 pm

Frank wrote:I just received my order of 8" Nicholson files. I'm still not sure which cut works best on Vulcanite and ABS, so I ordered one of each. I'll be running the "safe edge" over my belt grinder just to ensure it's really "safe".

Wow, that is a good idea. I'm going to try that, too.

Frank wrote:I haven't ordered these yet, but they look handy for smearing the slot/slit: http://www.ares-server.com/Ares/Ares.as ... t&ID=81847

Well definitely let us know how those work. They look pretty intriguing, and if they do a good job, they would probably pay for themselves after a few stems.

Oh yeah, I've also gotten intrigued by "Riffler" files. If you had a round Riffler with the right curve, it might be really handy for smoothing out any steps where the airway meets the bottom of the bowl.

In the past I have had fair luck smoothing that transition with a Dremel-type tool, but it's really hard to see what you're doing, once you get such a tool in there.

A Riffler file, on the other hand, would leave a lot more room to see what you are actually doing down there while you are doing it.

Frank · Post by **Frank** » Thu Apr 24, 2008 4:56 pm

pierredekat wrote:[Oh yeah, I've also gotten intrigued by "Riffler" files. If you had a round Riffler with the right curve, it might be really handy for smoothing out any steps where the airway meets the bottom of the bowl.

In the past I have had fair luck smoothing that transition with a Dremel-type tool, but it's really hard to see what you're doing, once you get such a tool in there.

A Riffler file, on the other hand, would leave a lot more room to see what you are actually doing down there while you are doing it.

I have a set of those hiding somewhere in my workshop. I think it was an impulse buy about a dozen years ago when I used to buy crap from Harbor Freight. Never actually found a use for them. I'll have to dig them out, now that you mention it. Probably lousy quailty, but we'll see.

LexKY_Pipe · Post by **LexKY_Pipe** » Thu Apr 24, 2008 5:30 pm

Nicholson files for me too. Best in the buisiness IMHO

kbadkar · Post by **kbadkar** » Fri Apr 25, 2008 2:20 pm

Frank wrote:
I haven't ordered these yet, but they look handy for smearing the slot/slit: http://www.ares-server.com/Ares/Ares.as ... t&ID=81847

Those broaches are great! Work like a charm. I was hesitant about $20 (now $25!) for a dinky item, but it was well worth it. I don't know what I did before I got them and before I put a scroll blade for my jigsaw in a handle and ground the tip to a steep taper.

pierredekat · Post by **pierredekat** » Sun Apr 27, 2008 5:09 am

kbadkar wrote:Those broaches are great! Work like a charm. I was hesitant about $20 (now $25!) for a dinky item, but it was well worth it. I don't know what I did before I got them and before I put a scroll blade for my jigsaw in a handle and ground the tip to a steep taper.

Well I guess I will have to give them a try.

wdteipen · Post by **wdteipen** » Mon Apr 28, 2008 3:09 am

What's the difference between the warding needle and the Grobet? They look the same to me. This is great info for me because I have been working with the same dilema. Just this past week I broke two files from a set I bought at a local hardware store. They are really the only two I use so far out of the set. Thanks for the info.

pierredekat · Post by **pierredekat** » Mon Apr 28, 2008 4:05 am

wdteipen wrote:What's the difference between the warding needle and the Grobet? They look the same to me. This is great info for me because I have been working with the same dilema. Just this past week I broke two files from a set I bought at a local hardware store. They are really the only two I use so far out of the set. Thanks for the info.

Well, "warding" is a style of file -- used originally by locksmiths to cut "wards" in locks and keys -- and Grobet is a brand name.

Frank · Post by **Frank** » Mon Apr 28, 2008 4:06 am

wdteipen wrote:What's the difference between the warding needle and the Grobet? They look the same to me.

That particular shape of file is called a Warding file. Grobet is just the trade name of the manufacturer/distributor of these files. There are other manufacturers, but Grobets seem to be of decent quality. We'll see, when I receive mine.

Frank · Post by **Frank** » Tue Apr 29, 2008 3:09 am

I received my Grobet files today. Haven't used them yet, but I'm a bit disappointed. The #2 cut looks a bit fine for smearing the slot. Probably be OK for squaring up the almost complete slot. At 5 1/2" OAL they're also a bit on the short side.

I'm thinking now that I should have gone with these Nicholsons from Enco: http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?ARTP ... O=16718038 , #0 cut, 6 1/4" AOL and 1/4 the price of the Grobets. I'm just not sure if the Nicholsons have a working edge or a safe edge, since they're listed as "flat files". I'm still waiting for my Broach files from Micromart. Perhaps the Broaches in conjuction with the Grobets might work.

My understanding of the "cuts" is that 00 is equivalent to Bastard, 0 is equivalent to 2nd Cut, and 2 is equivalent to Smooth Cut.

pierredekat · Post by **pierredekat** » Tue Apr 29, 2008 4:30 am

Well, sorry to hear that, Frank.

And why, oh why, have you been keeping this http://www.use-enco.com website a secret?!

Holy crap, they have 1000 grit wet/dry sandpaper (9x11) priced at $17.99 per 100 sheets!

I have been snooping around to buy it in bulk, but 3M brand is going for four times that on freakin ebay! And like eight times that at the auto parts store!

Even if their "Enco" branded sandpaper only lasts half as long as 3M, it's still a huge savings there.

I'm going to try to put together a big order today: sandpaper, files...

Oh my gosh, I feel like a kid in a candy store!

Frank · Post by **Frank** » Tue Apr 29, 2008 4:41 am

pierredekat wrote:And why, oh why, have you been keeping this http://www.use-enco.com website a secret?!

I just assumed most of the folks on this site knew about Enco. I think some folks regard Enco as rather down market in quality. For most of their stuff, they offer a choice of both USA made and cheaper imports.

Personally, I don't mind getting stuff from them, and their website is uber user friendly. I've been getting lathe & mill accessories from them for ages.

pierredekat · Post by **pierredekat** » Tue Apr 29, 2008 8:56 am

Yeah, well, I knew about Harbor Freight, and I buy a few things from them, but they only have the cheaper stuff.

I have had pretty good luck with some of their tools thus far. And I'm rather fortunate to have a store here locally, so I can go up whatever I want, whenever I want it.

But this Enco place, they have the same cheaper stuff, but they also have name brands, as well. And they appear to have everything I could ever need, tool-wise, available on their website for immediate shipment.

Like the single needle files and the 1000 grit sandpaper. Wow!

hazmat · Post by **hazmat** » Tue Apr 29, 2008 9:04 am

Okay, since we're discussing files, this is a question that's been bothering me for a while. What the bejeezus is the difference of the different "cuts" of the files? Or, what I think I'm really trying to ask, what are the coarse, medium and fine cuts? I have several different files I use in my shop, but I've never really concerned myself with the type of cut they are. I never figured it mattered much since everything gets sanded, but I can totally see how knowing would help in several different operations. I certainly don't want to be using a fine cut for stock removal work, e.g. early on in the stem making process.

Frank · Post by **Frank** » Tue Apr 29, 2008 1:00 pm

hazmat wrote:....What the bejeezus is the difference of the different "cuts" of the files? Or, what I think I'm really trying to ask, what are the coarse, medium and fine cuts? ....I never figured it mattered much since everything gets sanded, but I can totally see how knowing would help in several different operations. I certainly don't want to be using a fine cut for stock removal work, e.g. early on in the stem making process.

Matt, this will give some idea of the different cuts: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File_%28tool%29

As for which cut to use & when, it's like using sandpaper. You have to decide for yourself which grit/cut will do the best job for you for the material you're working on.

Frank · Post by **Frank** » Tue Apr 29, 2008 1:58 pm

pierredekat wrote:Even if their "Enco" branded sandpaper only lasts half as long as 3M, it's still a huge savings there.

I'm going to try to put together a big order today: sandpaper, files...

Oh my gosh, I feel like a kid in a candy store!

Robert, if you haven't placed your order yet, take advantage of the free shipping offer:

Call it May Madness if you like, but we're giving you BIG savings with Free Shipping* on many of our most popular machines, including the Enco 20 inch Square Column Mill/Drills during May. Plus, you'll get Free UPS Shipping* on your order of $50 or more through May 31, 2008.

To take advantage of this Free UPS Shipping* offer, enter WBRM8 in the promo code box on the shopping cart page at use-enco.com, or mention the code to your friendly sales associate when you phone 800-USE-ENCO to order.

hazmat · Post by **hazmat** » Tue Apr 29, 2008 2:10 pm

Frank wrote:
hazmat wrote:....What the bejeezus is the difference of the different "cuts" of the files? Or, what I think I'm really trying to ask, what are the coarse, medium and fine cuts? ....I never figured it mattered much since everything gets sanded, but I can totally see how knowing would help in several different operations. I certainly don't want to be using a fine cut for stock removal work, e.g. early on in the stem making process.
Matt, this will give some idea of the different cuts: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File_%28tool%29

As for which cut to use & when, it's like using sandpaper. You have to decide for yourself which grit/cut will do the best job for you for the material you're working on.

Thanks, Frank, for the link. When to use the various cuts made perfect sense to me once I knew there WERE different cuts

But knowing the difference between each is my current problem, methinks. I just bought files without regard for their proper useage. That link should straighten me out. Should be a fine evening of sorting out my files!

Frank · Post by **Frank** » Tue Apr 29, 2008 2:26 pm

hazmat wrote:Thanks, Frank, for the link. When to use the various cuts made perfect sense to me once I knew there WERE different cuts But knowing the difference between each is my current problem, methinks. I just bought files without regard for their proper useage. That link should straighten me out. Should be a fine evening of sorting out my files!

Another thing to bear in mind: Files are like sandpaper, they wear out.

Since I try to take good care of my tools, my old files look like they're in good condition, but I can tell they're not cutting as they should. Being an admitted cheapskate, I'm just loathe to throw away something that still looks like it should work well. Supposedly you can somewhat "refresh" old files by dipping them in acid and etching them back to some sharpness, I forget which acid though.

pierredekat · Post by **pierredekat** » Tue Apr 29, 2008 3:33 pm

Frank wrote:Robert, if you haven't placed your order yet, take advantage of the free shipping offer:
Call it May Madness if you like, but we're giving you BIG savings with Free Shipping* on many of our most popular machines, including the Enco 20 inch Square Column Mill/Drills during May. Plus, you'll get Free UPS Shipping* on your order of $50 or more through May 31, 2008.

To take advantage of this Free UPS Shipping* offer, enter WBRM8 in the promo code box on the shopping cart page at use-enco.com, or mention the code to your friendly sales associate when you phone 800-USE-ENCO to order.

Wow. Sweet.