sf/ds vs df/ss

LexKY_Pipe · Post by **LexKY_Pipe** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 9:48 am

I sense an unintentional elitism developing among the shape first officianados. Pretty soon if you make a pipe the way most of us started--drill first then shape--well, you're somewhat of a neanderthol.

I have a feeling that shaping first among the Danes was probably because someone couldn't afford a lathe chuck and they made do. Kind of like, why do people cut the end off the ham before they cook it? Well a long, long time ago, grandma didn't have a pot big enough to hold the hole ham. Now we do it because we think it's supposed to be done that way.

Many Danes drill first then shape. As a matter of fact, the very lathe chuck that many of us use was developed by Danes.

I hope we won't become so enamored with one particular method of pipe carving that we diss those (however unintenionally) who, for whatever reason, choose a different method than ours.

RadDavis · Post by **RadDavis** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 10:06 am

Hey Craig,

I'm still drilling first. And on a drill press, no less!

Rad

LexKY_Pipe · Post by **LexKY_Pipe** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 10:21 am

Rad

What comes before neanderthol?

Post by **KurtHuhn** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 10:36 am

Craig,

I don't sense any elitism developing at all. It's a new method for a lot of hobbyists and part-timers, so it's getting a lot of airtime on the forum. It's also a very interesting method, so even folks that have been doing it that way for a while like to talk about it with folks that are just learning the method.

A few years back, a lot of forum members went out and bought lathes, and there was lots of discussion about how best to use them. Eventually, everyone got comfortable, with using a lathe, and the hype subsided.

As everyone here gets more comfortable with the method, the talk will likely die down.

I think the last thing we can expect to see is pipe makers eschewing each other based on the method they use for making a pipe. If that were the case, nobody would talk to each other seeing as how we all make pipes differently.

Besides, it's not like everyone is going to stop using other methods. That's not cost effective for most of us, and it would be pretty silly. Drilling first and lathe shaping is, hands down the fastest way for me to make a pipe, allowing me to offer those pipes at inexpensive prices. Shaping first takes more time, so I have to charge more. And it's not like I'm going to make a billiard or a bulldog by shaping first and then drilling it - that would take way longer than I want to spend on a pipe like that.

Skip · Post by **Skip** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 11:29 am

I am most likely the slowest pipe maker that you will see that has proper tools. That being said I seem to have the oposite results from Kurt.
I find that my pipes come out much faster when I shape first. Not even close. If I want a crisp round look as viewed from the top, like on a bulldog, I use my Lamb chuck. While it is in position to do the top and bevels I drill a pilot hole. After that I take it off and shape with a Foredom tool. Next it goes to the belt sander. I leave the shank a little rough so that it can be clamped in a self centering device on my drill press. I stick a cutter on the drill press that squares the shank, drills the mortise and puts the bevel in in one pull. I smooth out the shank and then it is off to the other drill press for the air hole. I have a jig that was made up for the air hole. I adjust the jig, drill the hole and am off for stem work. The jig centers the hole and puts it right where it should be verticaly.

I would say that the time spent is just over half what it has been with the drill first method.

Your results may vary.

Skip Elliott

LexKY_Pipe · Post by **LexKY_Pipe** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 11:30 am

Kurt

Point well taken. I remember the lathe vs drill press discussions. Perhaps my post was premature. But this forum is great for bantering among ourselves as well.

Happy 4th to all too!!!!

bluesmk · Post by **bluesmk** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 12:04 pm

Hey Rad...I'm with you, I still drill first, on a press. So far the only thing I've use my lathe for is stem work and an ocassional seat for shank adornment, although not many, I've really become used to adding those with delrin lately. All my shaping starts with my bandsaw,then wheels, fliles, belt and paper. Gotta get the courage up to sf/drill second....and the time. I'm used to my method over the last eight years. I'll get there.
Dan
Gabrieli Pipes

kbadkar · Post by **kbadkar** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 4:11 pm

I haven't made pipes long enough to have a preference, bias, predilection, routine, etc. I don't have a drill press, so that method isn't available, but it seems rather exacting... but after years of doing it that way, I'm sure drill pressers have it down to a system and a science. I got a lathe to start off and drilled away, first with a 4 independent jaw chuck, then a self-centering one. In order to perfect the drilling procedures, I drilled a bunch a stummels and fit stems, but was left kind of "uninspired" to complete the shaping. All the info I needed to figure out lathe drilling was available in this forum and Tyler's website. Since I got Brad's bits, now the opposite is true. I have shaped a bunch of stummels that are now waiting to be drilled. Now it's a matter of trial and error in the drilling after process, since very little information is out there regarding the drilling procedures with the shape first method. So, I hope those that are experimenting with SF continue to share their experiences, or even better, those that have tons of experience share their knowledge, but it seems rare that they do. In the end, it's the pipe that matters, not the method. I believe the precious few out there that create pipes are a brotherhood, from novice to master, and if there exists any "elitism" among us, let it be based on the quality, craftmanship, and artistry of the final product, not methodology. I do think a little "healthy competition" pushes the individual and raises the bar.

jbacon · Post by **jbacon** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 5:47 pm

skip

can you tell us who made your mortise-square the shank-bevel the mortise tool and the jig to drill the draught hole

will he make more

jim

Heinz_D · Post by **Heinz_D** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 6:18 pm

KurtHuhn wrote:Drilling first and lathe shaping is, hands down the fastest way for me to make a pipe, allowing me to offer those pipes at inexpensive prices. Shaping first takes more time, so I have to charge more. And it's not like I'm going to make a billiard or a bulldog by shaping first and then drilling it - that would take way longer than I want to spend on a pipe like that.

I think, you're not right, Kurth...

Shaping first give you a lot of options to change the shape, if any flaws appear - you'll have much less waste of briar blocks and more profit!

And in my mind it isn't slower, but I'm shaping with a sanding disk with 24 grid and not with a lathe. That's a very quick method and you can grind out the scratches with 120 grid very easy. At the moment I need about 1 hour to cut, shape and (freehand) drill a block, mortise included...

I don't have any experience to shape with a lathe. May I ask,how long you'll need to do the same work with the lathe?

Heinz_D · Post by **Heinz_D** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 6:33 pm

Now it's a matter of trial and error in the drilling after process, since very little information is out there regarding the drilling procedures with the shape first method.

I'm still wondering, how easy that method is! I leraned it from Rainer Barbi:

First mark the middle of your tobacco chamber on the top, one side and towards the stem. Mark the depth of the tobacco chamber, then mark the drafthole in the same way. Drill a 4 mm leading hole for the tobacco chamber as deep as you need it (I mark the depth with adhesive tape on the drill bit). While drilling have attention to follow the marked lines with the drill bit in two directions! If you did it well, the draft hole will meet the leading hole exactly... Now you can drill a leading hole for the tobacco chamber with the decided diameter. I drill 2 thirds of the expected depth. The last third I drill with the special tool for tobacco chambers, so deep, that the draft hole meets the rounding of the tobacco hole 1 mm under the bottom. Now you can drill the mortise. The advantage of freehand drilling is, that you can easy lead the drill bits in the right position, even if you've to drill in a different angel for bents. It's also time for corrections in the first millimeters! Try it and you'll never do it in any other way...

Skip · Post by **Skip** » Thu Jul 05, 2007 12:37 am

Jim,
I am afraid that we can not go to the same source in either case.
The mortise tool came with my antique lathe when I bought it. It was made up by a previous ownner in Ohio that I never knew. Too bad because it is a very heavy duty tool. It screws on to both my lathe and one of my drill presses.

The jig is great as well. I mount it on a x-y axis that is bolted to my drill press. The jig pivots for ANY degee of curve. Unfortunately, the friend that made it passed away.

That jig is fantastic and if you have a budy that is a machinest I can send you enough pics so that it can be reproduced.

Sorry that I am no more help but I am not a machinest.

Skip

sethile · Post by **sethile** » Thu Jul 05, 2007 12:59 am

For me, it's about having options. I really like having options!

I can't imagine how I could drill after shaping certain shapes--I use the lathe too much to pull it off. Bulldogs, and my Pokerbash shape for example. I'm sure some others shapes will fall into that category too. It will be fun to play around and see what works best with what methods.

For me, the shape first option is great to have. It's not that one method is better than the others. That's going to vary depending on the shape, the block, and also the pipe maker! We all work our best in different ways.

I think the proof is is in the pipe. If you're making a beautiful pipe that smokes great over many years of service, and you love doing it, who cares how you accomplished it?

Nick · Post by **Nick** » Fri Jul 06, 2007 3:04 pm

If you don't make pipes, smoke pipes or love pipes then dammit I don't want to talk to you about pipes.

If that makes me an elitist, then dammit I'm an elitist and proud of it!

Post by **KurtHuhn** » Fri Jul 06, 2007 3:52 pm

Heinz_D wrote:I think, you're not right, Kurth... Shaping first give you a lot of options to change the shape, if any flaws appear - you'll have much less waste of briar blocks and more profit!

Actually, when you price in the range that I and most other full-time or dedicated part-timers do, material isn't your highest cost, time is. The blocks of wood can be had for a wide range of prices, and if you get good wood, you don't need to worry about throwaways.

TreverT · Post by **TreverT** » Fri Jul 06, 2007 4:13 pm

I have no "one method". I like options. Plus, usually I find that particular shapes will cry out more for one style of drilling or another.

Sometimes I drill on my drill press, but rarely.

Often I will drill on the lathe in the big two-jaw chuck, which allows for handy bowl and shank turning if it's meant to be some style of turned shape.

Sometimes I will shape first and drill afterwards via spoon bits, if I really am chasing a smooth pipe for some reason.

Quite often, I will simply rough-cut the shape in line with the grain and drill it on the big adjustable drilling machine - It saves the time of fine-shaping before drilling and potentially having to discard the pipe due to bowl flaws. This way I find out first if there are bad flaws both inside and outside of the stummel, and end up with a pipe that I'm sure will be a good sandblast if it's not lucky enough to be smooth.

There really isn't any method better than another, it's just a matter of adapting the best method for your particular pipe.

Nick · Post by **Nick** » Fri Jul 06, 2007 4:25 pm

This is a bit off topic, but something Trever said (all glory to Trever - that reminds me of the pet show episode of Futurama: All glory to the hypnotoad! Hehe) You know, I wonder is there is some way you could rig a chuck up to attach to a metal lathe's carriage. Somthing that is a bit more flexible and could hold irregular shapes. That would be pretty darn cool. Or even just a regular chuck that has some sort of flexible jaws. kinda like those niftly little toys with all the pins, where you stick your face with your tongue stuckout aganist the pins and you see the image in the raised pins on the other side? That would be really cool.

Maybe you could use some sort of foam that would harden to the shape. Or clay. OHH! That would be nifty.... if it wasn't so darn much work. Still, some stiff foam may be the ticket.

TreverT · Post by **TreverT** » Fri Jul 06, 2007 5:05 pm

Nick, you're thinking of this:

The chuck jaws are massively adjustable. They hold any sort of customized chuck soft jaws and can rotate, tilt, raise, lower.. pretty much present your object to the drill bit at any angle desired. Then I advance the entire carriage onto the spinning bit. It allows me to rough-shape first and use spade bits for the drilling. Handy thing, really. I made a video of it in action at some point, but have now totally forgotten the link.

Karol · Post by **Karol** » Sat Jul 07, 2007 6:49 am

http://www.talbertpipes.com/2005/10/photo-re-post.html

Nick · Post by **Nick** » Mon Jul 09, 2007 2:39 pm

Yep! That's the one. And it was your seahorse pipe you were working on, right?