The Russian Logopipe??

geigerpipes · Post by **geigerpipes** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 4:44 am

Hey Freinds

I sometimes google my name because I'm always intrested to see what others have written about my work or links placed to my site ect (or mabey I'm just self Centered

)...now recently I have noticed a few crafters putting the names of famous makers in their page description...so when you surch for say Tom Eltang you'll end up at their page...While doing asuch a googeling I came to a Russian pipemakers site and found there a down right copy of my signature shape the Logo pipe mabey not with as striking grain or a nice silver ring but with no variation...now I dont know if I sould be proud or angry...

What are your thoughts on getting inspired by other makers/copying??

Now dont get me wrong I have borrowed many elements from other makers over the years and incorperated them into my own work on the path to find my own voice and after all there is only so many was one can vary a peice of briar with a few holes and some rubber stuck into it...but theres a fine line between getting inspired and copying...

Here are some pics for coparing:

Geiger Logo

Russian Freeform

See the recemblance?

Best

Love
www.geigerpipes.com

Post by **KurtHuhn** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 10:23 am

I'm not quite sure what my opinion is. On the one hand, I consider imitation to tbe the sincerest for of flattery - he obviously is a fan of your work, otherwise he wouldn't attempt a copy. On the other hand, nobody really enjoys seeing their artistic efforts copied and used without attribution.

I will say this:
It is a well executed pipe, that seems to pay homage to the original. It's not an awful example, as if some inexperienced or unskilled maker put it together. It does stand on it's own, and when I look at it in comparison to yours, it is actually somewhat impressive. Over the two, I would grab for yours first, given the silver accents, the wonderful staining, and the fact that I know your work better. But I wouldn't turn down the Russian pipe if it was offered to me. I do like it quite a bit.

And, if you take a look at the rest of his site:
http://www.pipeatelier.spb.ru/YASHTILOV ... R/Pipe.htm
You can see that he's actually quite skilled. I do see some familiar shapes - the elephant's foot looks similar to something Trever recently made.

But, none of that seems to quite get past the fact that this is your signature shape - your logo pipe. I'm not sure if that was a line that should have been crossed or not.

Nick · Post by **Nick** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 11:28 am

Kinda sucks. At least the guy ought to attribute the shape to you.

geigerpipes · Post by **geigerpipes** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 12:23 pm

The guy obviously has skills as you say Kurt but Imo thats just why he shouldnt down right copy.. I would be more okay with it if an amature had made a pipe that you could see the resemblance to a known makers work to learn teqneques and develop a style of his own or like Nick says if he had mentioned who made the original shape...also what gets to me is that he did not vary the shape in any way he even imitated the silver ring in the ivory on the stem..interpitations are different from down right copying...Like Trevers elephan foot wich is vastly different from say Teddy Knudsen who made the shape originally also Trever states who originally made the shape...

If you go to the guys links page he has listed all the other swedish makers exept me...

Heres another example of his work

Rolando negotia:

Russian copy:

Rolando does not get mentioned anywhere....

Best

Love
www.geigerpipes.com

Post by **KurtHuhn** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 12:36 pm

Holy crap, Love, you're right!! I knew that I recognized that horn shape from somewhere but I couldn't place it. Amazing.....

Yeah, I think you're right to be angry. Especially when you put it in those terms. The fact that he has skill means that he shouldn't be making such close copies of other folks' work. He really needs to develop his own artistic vision, and work on coming up with his own style.

NvilleDave · Post by **NvilleDave** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 4:54 pm

I think you should be annoyed... And I'll also say that I have copied in the past--out of ignorance. I sent some pictures of my work to Larry Roush and he responded "Ok, where's YOUR work--I see Ivarsson and Wolfgang Becker but I don't see David Brooks". That stung but I'll be forever grateful because I came away from my conversation with him knowing that I have to come up with my own style. That means doing exactly like Trever said when making the Ramses in his movie--your pipes have to come from the right side of YOUR brain--not copied.

There are other considerations too-- it depends on what your goals are--hobbiest who makes pipes for himself and friends OR an artisan desired by collectors. If a collector wants to buy a Geiger pipe he'll buy one--not a copy. Larry said this too--"I have clients that are literally millionaires, they can afford ANY pipe out there and when you can get in those pipe racks on a regular basis, you have accomplished something. That is what you want if you intend to make this your livelihood."

The guy is copying--he probably just hasn't had anyone tell him he's on the wrong path.

That's my opinion.

Dave

Frank · Post by **Frank** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 5:42 pm

I agree with pretty much evrything you guys have said.

@Love Geiger
I suggest you contact him directly and put some of the above questions to him.
This is his contact page: http://www.pipeatelier.spb.ru/YASHTILOV ... ontact.htm

It would be interesting to see if he responds and what he has to say.

StephenDownie · Post by **StephenDownie** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 6:45 pm

I have to agree, that sucks. I've seen elements of my work in other maker's stuff and I've been inspired by elements in other pipe maker's work. Creation does not happen in a vacuum. This being said those pipes are clearly direct ripoffs.

NvilleDave · Post by **NvilleDave** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 7:55 pm

StephenDownie wrote:<SNIP>... I've been inspired by elements in other pipe maker's work. Creation does not happen in a vacuum. <SNIP>

Exactly... I used to have pictures of pipes that I like on the walls in my shop. Not anymore, I took them down, everyone of them. In fact I make it a point not to have any pictures of pipes in my shop.

Look at them on the internet, study them... picture in my minds eye the elements that I like but that's it. No more copying... my pipes are going to be ugly as hell over the next few years but at least they'll be my own.

Dave

carthagena · Post by **carthagena** » Thu Dec 22, 2005 2:01 am

This russian pipemaker is known for copying the pipes from other pipemakers. The pipemaker he copy often is Rolando Negoita, and Rolando feels angry about that, as one said me.

I think that variations are good, but copy not !

Happy smoking
David

Romario · Post by **Romario** » Thu Dec 22, 2005 2:40 pm

Viktor Yashtylov saying he makes copy’s usually in custom order and with reasonable price.
And he don’t se nothing bad in this. Owners of his pipes saying they are weary god.
Hire theme about this but in Russian language
http://www.pipeclub.info/forumipb/index ... 11c33eb112

I ges that I meet him and his pipes next week in St. Petersburg xmas party.

Sorry for my English

Roman

alexanderfrese · Post by **alexanderfrese** » Fri Dec 23, 2005 4:14 am

For me, it's an old dilemma between artistic attitude towards someoene else’s influence and the attitude of a skilled craftsman. It's the same with music or with design matters.
An artist would surely mention the original, since he would like to be treated that way, if he was the "inventor". A cratsman does not necessarily take those thoughts into consideration. He does not (and probably never will) make a development of his own. It's just another idea, he can use his technical skills on.
All trends in creative work (may this be music as an example we all know from our everyday life) pull a big tail of folllowers, who do nothing else but copy the trend without hardly ever adding a new facette. That’s the way it is. And I think it would be wrong to demand more consciousness for that problem from those »followers«. They just don't feel that way. They can't think that way. More: They simply are not that way.
And since they only are »dedicated followers of fashion«, we should not flame them as if they were on one level. If they claimed or acted as if to be on the front line of invention and in fact only copy, then one might even try to sue them for that – although virtually impossible over intl. boundaries. But one should not be too bugged about someone »down there« (on that other level) works in one's own footsteps. Don't get me wrong – I would not like it, too. But we should always keep in mind, that some sort of judgement will only be suitable if we assume both parties beeing on some sort of peer-to-peer level.

Just my 2 Euro-Cents.

bscofield · Post by **bscofield** » Fri Dec 23, 2005 2:49 pm

When you whipped out your's and his logo pipes, I honestly thought that it could even have been a coincidence, or maybe a fluke (saw it and didn't know it was a "signature pipe" of your's and duped it).

Then you whipped out the one he duped of Rolando's and I changed my mind... That's just down right copying, IMO.

I do have a question tho:

When is it OK for someone to make a shape that someone else came up with and NOT give them credit? Example: I can't think of the name, but wasn't the tear drop credited to someone specific? Yet, now I see it duped with no mention of that person's name. And how about the Ballerina? I don't see Bo's name attached to every one I see (none, actually. Unless Bo made it). I'm not saying what this guy did was OK, because in the cases above it seems more like he's ripping of signature work rather than going for something that is a recognizable shape.

Maybe that's the answer? When something is recognizable as a shape and is able to gain that recognition on it's own without the original maker's name attached to it...?

bluesmk · Post by **bluesmk** » Fri Dec 23, 2005 10:25 pm

I don't know about the debate.....it's downright copying, and I think,I'd be angry!
Dan
Gabrieli Pipes

magruder · Post by **magruder** » Sat Dec 24, 2005 3:33 am

Send him an Email and a link to this thread.
He's too good to be knocking off others' designs and get away with it.:naughty:

take care and good luck,
Steve

alexanderfrese · Post by **alexanderfrese** » Sat Dec 24, 2005 7:17 am

bluesmk wrote:I don't know about the debate.....it's downright copying, and I think,I'd be angry!
Dan
Gabrieli Pipes

Yes, it is copying. If you're that far outstanding to really invent a shape from scratch, you will be haunted by copying, because your shape is good!
This adds some chance for being proud of what is happening. Think about it! As long as they don't pirat your name or logo and sell their pipes as made by someone else (i.e. you), I still don't quite get the point of really being angry.
You can’t hide your precious pipes like some sort of treasure from the eye of the public, since you a) want to pleased by supporting comments and (maybe more important) b) want to earn something by selling it.
Creative work (as pipemaking is to some extent) wants to be renown. If you invent something considerably innovative and good, and you ain't a renowned pipe-maker yet, the sticker »This-shape-invented-by-XYZ-in-2004« will probably never be put on all that pipes of that shape out there. On the way to be renowned, you will have to go through some of that processes. And even if you are a maker with a name – as stated above with the teardrop – it will become public property over time.
There are some things in life that are not under our control. I realized, that angriness from these things I can do nothing about does not do any good but me being blocked by that feeling. So I try to leave it behind…
Still does not set me free from the duty to check if there is something I can do about it. If not? Damn it and go on.

magruder · Post by **magruder** » Sun Dec 25, 2005 8:59 pm

Alex,

There are copyright laws in the US to prevent this sort of thing.
Also, the US Customs Service seizes and destroys millions of counterfiet items a year.

While the Russian pipes are not counterfiet -passing as a Love or Rolando
pipe - the intention is to obtain the fruit of anothers' talent and labor
and exclude the original artist from the PROFITS derived from that talent and labor.

I believe that to copy exactly as possible, in a manner to captures the uniqueness of a certain pipe, is morally wrong and, in the US and many other countries, illegal.

A man or woman should be protected from having their talent and skill
poached by knockoff artists.

I was a professional musician for years and I am currently a professional photographer and I am always alert to copyright infrindgement and
avoid commiting it myself.

If this guy is a good pipemaker, let him stand own his own like a man and take the chances that real artists take everyday.

Anger is sometimes a appropriate response to intentional violation of moral standards and legal code.

Best to all here,
Steve

bolasdefuego · Post by **bolasdefuego** » Sun Dec 25, 2005 11:21 pm

Merry Christmas to all!

Love,

I would be very angry also. This man suffers from what I call the "levis for Lada" syndrome. You may rember a commercial many years ago where this young man trades his Levis for a Lada or scoda? to go pick up his girlfriend. While under communist rule, the Russian people and others under such rule longed for what they could not have (pretty much everything...) this to some extent remains in effect to this day. This man, obviously very talented at least as a craftsman, might not be able to sell his own work for lack of interest, yet people apparently commission nock-offs of the forbidden, foreign etc.

About including other makers names in keywords etc on ones web page.
I do that, I have done such thing from 1995 when I started developping webs. I offer no appology, and I feel it is 100% ethical and furthermore 100% consistent with the spirit of the web. What my intention has allways been is to expose people to alternatives to the things and data they are searching for. It is no different than a link from another page, it offers people alternatives, an opportunity to see more of the same or related.
This technique, stems from having read the search engines recommendations and guidelines, you could do the same.
In absolutedly no way have I ever implied selling anything other than my creations, nor than there are any similarities, I think there aren't.

Here is a screen shot of the site's stats as of tonight.
http://www.bolasdefuego.com/WA/images/keyphrases.gif
you will see that hits from search engines for this kind of site are but a small percentage of the total. (I should ask Tokutomy if he wants to sell his pipes on my site..

) I have invited many pipemakers to exchange links, including yourself.

I must add that I share the above opinion, that people are going to buy what they want, seldom does this technique yield a higher position on the search engines than the main (makers web) site, if they got to mine they were probably not interested anyway.
I feel this is fair game, and that people should not be affraid of fair competition.
I more than welcome your opinions, as long as you understand the technique and its purpose.

On another note, that frankly has me quite sad and disappointed about the whole pipe scene. And that I suspect has to do with this matter of the keywords.
I call it Quixote does the beltsander shuffle. BTW the two shots were sent to me with a very nice email unfortunately my reply for more info yielded a "failure Notice".
You be the judge.
http://www.bolasdefuego.com/WA/quixoteshuffle.html

What other makers do you know off that use this technique Love?
As far as I know I came up with this in 1995, but of course I am not special.
I compete in a fair manner, if anyone had reservations they should have contacted me directly.
Too many Rock Stars. I am a Designer, at this time I design and craft tobacco smoking pipes.

Daniel Lafforgue
Bolas De Fuego Pipes
Seattle, USA

geigerpipes · Post by **geigerpipes** » Mon Dec 26, 2005 10:40 am

Hey again guys Back from the x-mas stuffing at the parents

this is the only time of year food really can disgust me...

This has turned into an intresting discussion

Hey Dan Good to see you post here...

About adding other makers names to your web page decsription I have no problem with it as of such just when I click such a link and see a copy of one of my pipes at the other end 8O ...

Like you state Im not buggered by the competiton and seldom think of it in thouse terms....people who have the intrest and capital to contackt pipemakers directly to bye their pipes often know what they want and like..

Do you mean that someone suggested that you ripped of the design from eltangs creation if so thats nosnense Imo...well it does have that same wooden material and that rubber sticking out heck it even has similar holes drilled into it

I do love variations and different ways that different makers choose to form a pipe... nothing wrong with that...but when downright copying I wonder what the purpose was of making the pipe originally, as the design part is one of the most awarding for me and something that is really great when someone actually say the like it

also there are so many other ways to get inspired than by looking at others work...the world is full of inspiration..and when aprocing it from that angle one might bring new and exiting creations into the world of pipedom...even though one runs the risk of not being mainstreem or not liked by all..or turning out an occational warclub...

And like stated above Creativity does not appear in a vacume sometimes when I post a pipe someone will mail me and say hey I have a design just like that on paper and Visa versa ...the lord works in mysterious ways...

I guess people do stuff for different reasons and have different ways to approch it...I find it very boring to visit craft fairs and see the very common craftspeople presenting their creations copied out from the books or leant from their weekend classes...but whenever I see someone who uses the instrument... be it the harp or the lathe to express something personal and special I gett touched...while others might react in an opposite way because what I consider to be someting uniqe might be something they can not indentify with...

And then theres the hey Nordh can make a Natilus and sell it for xxxx$ then why shouldnt Ii get xxx$ for my version of it...I mean its almost just as good at least from what I can see from grazing at this grey screen....

Well need to go before my girlfreind calls me a computer-pipe geek again

Merry Xmas all

Love
www.geigerpipes.com

bolasdefuego · Post by **bolasdefuego** » Mon Dec 26, 2005 11:26 pm

Love,

Don Quixote was posted in late August, although I carved it over a year ago, it took me some time to get the proper finishing gear, and muster the courage.
I was told the other pipe is a recent one, but I do not know or frankly care.

On a different note, and I hope this is OK with Kurt.
I will be offering supplies in my other site in the near future.

http://www.bolaspipes.com

For the time being it redirects to BDF but I am working on the supplies and tools side.

I have extremely tight node Chinesse bamboo rhizomes and also some extraordinary velvety Japanese bamboo.