The Relic

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scotties22
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The Relic

Post by scotties22 »

Hi guys, I'm new here. My name is Scottie (and just so there's no confusion, I am a girl). I have carved one pre drilled kit and this is my second pipe. I have chosen to leave this pipe flawed and was going for a "i just found this in a dark cave and buffed it up" look. I have been reading quite a bit here and have already learned so much. Please, I am begging for your honest opinions and critisims. My feelers don't hurt real easy and I do want to become a better carver.

Okay, here it is. This is cherrywood. The extension is purpleheart wood and the stem in ebonite. It is 6.75 inches tall. The chamber is .75 in diameter and 1.875 deep. I finished it with a bit of carnuba.

"The Relic"

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The stem/shank junctions still isn't perfect. The bowl is a bit asymetrical. The tobacco hole is about 1/8 inch too deep. It does hang extremely well.

Okay boys, let me have it.

Thanks to Growley and Ocelot for all the advise over on BoB and sending me here.

Scottie
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Nate
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Re: The Relic

Post by Nate »

Welcome Scottie!! Glad you're here! Enjoy and post often.
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kkendall
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Re: The Relic

Post by kkendall »

Not much critique can be offered. You were going for a certain look, and got it. Because of this objective, no rules apply, there is no right or wrong (fit/finish/lines/etc).

If you wanted it to have a "finished" look, we might be able to help.

BTW - Keep it up.
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Ocelot55
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Re: The Relic

Post by Ocelot55 »

Its good to see you here, Scottie.

I'm going to ask an honest question. Please don't get offended. Did you really shoot for such a rough finish or did you just not want to spend the hours and hours it takes to sand the pipe? If you like that look, that's fine, but to me it looks sloppy. I think the shape is pretty good for such an early pipe, but you really need to work it over with sandpaper and clean up the entire surface of the pipe working down from probably 220 grit to 600 making sure to remove the scratches left by the previous grit.

I don't want to sound to harsh here, I just want to help. If you like the rough look, maybe you could rusticate the pipe.

Again, I'm happy to see you here. Take some time to read the posts and get acquainted with the other pipemakers on here. Some are truly incredible artists, and you will be too. Now go make some more pipes! :thumbsup:
scotties22
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Re: The Relic

Post by scotties22 »

No offense taken, it is a valid question. I really decided to go in this direction. I have an uncle this pipe has been intended for that will really love the look of it. The roughness of the finish will apeal to him. I did concider sanding it smooth, I actually started to last night and stopped myself. I have a sand blaster and hadn't considered going that direction. I will have to read up on the process. Something to chew on today. Thanks.
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Cory
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Re: The Relic

Post by Cory »

Welcome! I'm new as well, but I have a few comments - take them with a grain of salt.

1. I think you may have gotten the look you were going for a little bit better if you finished the pipe a little more. To me, when I think of "pipe pulled out of a cave and buffed up" that is not what comes to mind. I think of a properly finished and shaped pipe that has been roughened (rusticated in some manner - I don't think sandblasted is your best option unless you do it creatively [a properly sandblasted pipe does not look at all like it has been pulled out of a cave haha]) and maybe 'molded' or 'dirtied up' with some inventive staining (areas of different colors/shades). But, as everyone else said. It is your pipe and your vision and if you are just in it for fun, then have at it.

2. I think the bowl needs to be defined and shaped a little more (like ocelot said, use some sandpaper for the finer shaping). If you brought in the vertical shank some and removed some of the bottom of the bowl, I think it would help you reach your goal.

3. I don't think the shape of the purpleheart extension really works well with the pipe or the stem.

Good luck!
The way to make people want to smoke your pipes is to develop a reputation for excellence in your work. This takes a lot of hard work and several years to accomplish, and there are no short cuts. You just have to keep at it. - Rad Davis
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PhilipMarc
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Re: The Relic

Post by PhilipMarc »

Hi Scottie,

Welcome to the forum! I think we only have a few ladies here, so thank you for the added diversity.

As for an honest critique of the pipe...

If you stick with pipemaking long enough, you'll experience what every pipemaker has experienced before you (with the exception of a few prodigious makers). 150 pipes down the road, you'll look at your early work and say "I can't believe I thought that was a good pipe." I'm not saying this is a terrible first try; in fact I'm impressed with your being able to drill such a steep angle successfully on your second pipe, and your shaping is off to a good start. A Ramses is not an easy shape to make.
However, I do have a few suggestions and remarks.

1. If you plan on being a maker of briar pipes, I suggest you work with briar exclusively. It can be had cheaper than you might think. Ask suppliers for "seconds," and sometimes you can get them for half price and they're great to practice on.

2. Be a student, not an "artist." My brother in law has been a student of classical painting for many years, and I have learned so much from him. He can paint a portrait of you that in nearly indistinguishable from a photograph if you're standing more than 3 feet away, and yet he still studies, and considers himself a student. Why? Because thousands of years of hard study and genius went into getting painting to where it is today, and it would be unwise to think that you could innovate the art without devoting your life to it. They say it takes a minimum of 10,000 hours of devoted study to master an art. Now think; if the masters of pipemaking who came before you all sanded their pipes smooth, we probably should too, right? I hate to sound intolerant, but this pipe you've made, while it has its highpoints, is a departure from the developed art of pipemaking. My advice to you is that you study the classical art of pipemaking, master it, and THEN innovate, because at that point you'll be qualified to innovate. In the long run it will benefit you greatly, and not only that, it will benefit the world of pipemaking, because you will have been a part of the evolution of what we do, and go down into history as a colleague, not a casualty.

You're off to a good start!
www.ThePipeGuys.com • Philip Marc • Pipemaker • New Jersey
scotties22
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Re: The Relic

Post by scotties22 »

The "grain of salt" comments are why I am here. Thanks for the suggestions, I see where my design is lacking. I need to be more defined in my...vision...I'll say. Right now I am a near sighted idiot in desperate need of glasses. Again, thank you for the feedback. I will keep you udpated with how I progress.

Scottie
Am I Calamity Jane or Annie Oakley??...depends on the day.
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The Smoking Yeti
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Re: The Relic

Post by The Smoking Yeti »

Alright, here is a bit of encouragement. I think for a second pipe it is wonderful. You've got some pretty decent engineering goin' on. For a second pipe that's remarkable. I think what they say about being a student of the classics is also really a good idea. Don't be discouraged, I've been in the same boat as you. Just keep sloggin' away! You'll be surprised how fast things improve. Just keep sanding :P

P.s. I do like the angles you drilled on this pipe, that's pretty hard to do.
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scotties22
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Re: The Relic

Post by scotties22 »

I have to thank Growley and his Ramses for the inspiration. He has also given me quite a bit of advise and it is much appreciated. I'm not discouraged in the least and am actually sitting at the computer with the pipe in front of me right now.
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Growley
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Re: The Relic

Post by Growley »

scotties22 wrote:I have to thank Growley and his Ramses for the inspiration. He has also given me quite a bit of advise and it is much appreciated. I'm not discouraged in the least and am actually sitting at the computer with the pipe in front of me right now.
Ha,...I wish I could call it "my" ramses. The Ramses I did was a direct rip off of Tom Eltang's Ramses, which is probably his version of a Bo Nordh Ramses. Yep, I'm a copy cat. Most of my first pipes were copies of some sort. I found pipe makers who I thought were doing it right and tried to find my way to make their pipes. It's the way I study. I look at pipe maker's pipes every week and love the study of it.

To go along with a lot of what's been said already. Copying is a great way to lear. Painters do it all the time to get started. I was just talking to Ocelot about this last night. I've found that after I copied pipes for a while, I'd be working on one and get an idea of how I could do it a bit differently to suit my tastes more. My suggestion is to copy pipes you like until you start finding your own way. But be judicious in the pipes you choose to copy. If you copy junk you'll probably make junk. LOL Pick much better pipe makers than myself to copy and you might go somewhere :wink: .

Also, to add to what Cory was saying about making it look like it was found in a cave, here's how I'd look at it: Think about what kind of pipe it was before it was ever lost in a cave for 100 years. Picture it being a perfect pipe, and then make that pipe. Once you've got the shaping done as perfectly as you can, then start thinking about what kind of life it led getting to a point where it was lost in a cave, meaning; how was it treated, did it get beat up by rocks because it was lost overboard? If so, what kind of marks would those rocks have made on it? Did it get beat down by the sun and sand and wind sitting on the beach for 40 years? How would those elements effect the way it looks? Was the rim charred because the sailor who smoked it constantly tired to light it in the raging wind? When you're putting a story behind a pipe, you have to tell the details of the story, not just the ending, otherwise the character of the story is less believable.

And, no matter what form of rustication you use on a pipe, I think you have to make a brilliant pipe first, and then rusticate it. Otherwise you'll lose the look you are going for. Rustication can be used to cover flaws in the wood, but it shouldn't be used to cover flaws in shaping. Those flaws will still be transposed in the final shape.

Did I just take that way deeper than it needed to go? :D
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Ocelot55
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Re: The Relic

Post by Ocelot55 »

Growley wrote: And, no matter what form of rustication you use on a pipe, I think you have to make a brilliant pipe first, and then rusticate it. Otherwise you'll lose the look you are going for. Rustication can be used to cover flaws in the wood, but it shouldn't be used to cover flaws in shaping. Those flaws will still be transposed in the final shape.
Bingo! The same thing applies to sandblasting. And I can't agree more with Brian's assertion that you need to copy before you come up with your own style. Copying is about all I do and I think I have learned a lot from it.
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Hudson
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Re: The Relic

Post by Hudson »

Just to give you a different slant on the task you’re undertaking . . . I don’t think you have to learn to paint like John Singer Sargent if what you really want to do is learn to paint like Richard Diebenkorn. I don’t think you need to write like Tolstoy if what you really want to do is write like Robert Parker. Nor do I think you need to master the shapes in the Dunhill catalog if you have a passion for creating pipes that might have been found in a cave. There are a lot of beautiful pipes posted here (and some not so beautiful) but yours is different than most in that it has a story behind it, it has a narrative. If that’s what interests you, build on it. Who left this pipe in the cave; was it a Neanderthal or was it a 19th century explorer? Flesh out the story you want to tell, figure out what that pipe would look like, and then figure out how to execute it. Along the way, study all kinds of pipes, experiment with those that catch your fancy and work tirelessly to perfect the variety of talents it takes to make a pipe that is a joy to smoke and a delight to hold. Each of us brings a unique history and set of talents to the pipecrafting bench and so we can each contribute to the moving target that becomes the history of pipemaking.

So please do feel welcome; you’ve already prodded me to express some thoughts I’ve been gnawing on for some time and perhaps your arrival will enliven a debate from which we all will learn.
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"Creativity is the residue of time wasted."

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The Smoking Yeti
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Re: The Relic

Post by The Smoking Yeti »

What Growley said is great, I'm starting to see the need to REALLY focus on my shapes as I learn to rusticate. I've found myself thinking more and more back to the extra features from Lord of the Rings when I'm reading this discussion. The guys in the model shops talk endlessly about creating a motif and building history into the details of their props. I think you would do well to watch the weta workshop behind the scenes stuff from Lord of the Rings. It seems to be EXACTLY what you're wanting to do with your pipes. It's also something I'm developing a strong interest in. I think if you pursue the idea of giving your pipes a history, you'll really have fun and create something unique.

Keep at it! And as they've said before, study other pipemakers, try to emulate those you like, and always always always perfect your shape before you scuff 'er up :P
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scotties22
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Re: The Relic

Post by scotties22 »

I want to start out by saying thank you to everyone for slapping me back into place. I truly understand the difference between "unfinished with your pipe you idiot.." and " rustic".

I still need to buff it one more time. But, other than that I think it is finished. I removed more stock off the bottom, so its about 6.5 inches long now. I didn't change anything else, just cleaned everything up for the most part. Sorry about the glare, photography isn't my strong suit! :oops:

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Please don't mind the easter egg in the background...I was having trouble balancing this little bugger.

Thanks again for all the guidance.

Scottie
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Cory
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Re: The Relic

Post by Cory »

MUCH, MUCH better!

I think you really got what everyone was saying, which is good.

The bowl and shank extension look much more refined in shape, and natural in rustication. The stummel could use some more shaping (sand, sand, sand - when you think you are done, you are halfway there) - it is lumpy in some parts (I know its weathered and aged, but it shouldn't be lumpy). Also, the stem seems out of place (not sure what can be done about it - I think it is the way you used a sander or whatever to 'weather' it; doesn't match how the rest of the pipe was 'weathered' and aged). Also, it looks like the stem/tenon is at an angle (opposite the way it bends).

Once you refine it some more and get a better finish, I think it will look great.
The way to make people want to smoke your pipes is to develop a reputation for excellence in your work. This takes a lot of hard work and several years to accomplish, and there are no short cuts. You just have to keep at it. - Rad Davis
scotties22
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Re: The Relic

Post by scotties22 »

My block wasn't square when I started and I had trouble getting the stem to line up from the beginning. I have learned my lesson about moving the block from the vise before I have faced it and drilled the mortar. This is what it looked like when I started.

Image

I'm getting closer with the stem. I think I am going to bend it again to see if I can get it lined up any better with the stummel.
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Ocelot55
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Re: The Relic

Post by Ocelot55 »

I think you can definitely see an improvement. I would just add that sanding is the most boring tedious part of making a pipe. You need to try and remove ALL the tooling marks. That is sometimes quite a task. Once that is done, then I rusticate, granted I don't sand down to 600 on the stummel if I'm going to rusticate it, typically just to 220. How much do some of you other guys sand before rusticating?

For such an early pipe you should feel very proud of yourself, Scottie. I'm still to chicken to attempt a Ramses.
scotties22
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Re: The Relic

Post by scotties22 »

I did the shaping with my dremel. And I think that got me in trouble, especially on the stem. I am undecided if I should make a new stem or try to bend this one. Maybe bend first and keep the other as a back up. I have a new toy arriving in the mail today that should help me with squaring and shaping.....I bought a belt/disc sander. At this point I am willing the Fedex man to get here. A lathe is still a ways down the road, maybe christmas. I swear I am the only woman that loves appliances, powertools and gadgets in general as presents.
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Cory
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Re: The Relic

Post by Cory »

scotties22 wrote:I am undecided if I should make a new stem or try to bend this one.
Since the tenon and squareness are off, I would go ahead and make a new one (given you have the material). Unless you are happy with it. You are going to be able to tell pretty much no matter what you do. Another advantage is you can make the stem match (aesthetically) the pipe a bit better if you redo it (I would avoid using the dremel, it is easy to take too much material off with a preform and plus you aren't shaping, you are mildly rusticating which is hard enough to do to a stem).

And like you said, it makes life 1000x easier if you drill all your holes without adjusting/removing between each bit.
The way to make people want to smoke your pipes is to develop a reputation for excellence in your work. This takes a lot of hard work and several years to accomplish, and there are no short cuts. You just have to keep at it. - Rad Davis
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