Copy Cat

[Growley]

I've always found that when I'm learning something new, the best thing to do is copy the masters until I find my own way. This is a copy pipe I did yesterday. I'm really happy with how it turned out, but am always open and eager to hear your critique.

This was the first freehand I've done, meaning I only used my lathe to drill the holes. All the shaping was done free hand with saws and sanders. The stem is hand cut ebonite.

I'll post my pipe first and the original last.









Here's the pipe I copied from...



What do ya think?

[Sasquatch]

I think you came pretty damn close. Yours is a tiny bit more "appley" - the original has a brandy sort of look to my eyes, it's just a little bit more bottom heavy.

Not sure what I'm seeing on your button Growley - the top view looks like there's little nicks on the sides, and the one side view makes it look like the top and bottom are not quite the same somehow. What are you using to shape that end?

[e Markle]

Cool pipe. I think your shaping is pretty good. Your stem needs a bit of work; here's what I would do:
1. Thin it out just behind the saddle. If you feel you need the bulk, at least thin the edges of the stem out, so you have a domed stem with a narrow edge like the pipe you were imitating.
2. Try to eliminate that gap! Are you using delrin?
3. Buff/Polish the stem more. Shininess covers a multitude of sins. If you sand to about 400, you can go straight to red compound, touch some white to it and you're done.

Keep up the good work.

[Growley]

I think you came pretty damn close. Yours is a tiny bit more "appley" - the original has a brandy sort of look to my eyes, it's just a little bit more bottom heavy.

Not sure what I'm seeing on your button Growley - the top view looks like there's little nicks on the sides, and the one side view makes it look like the top and bottom are not quite the same somehow. What are you using to shape that end?

Thanks Sas. I'm using all manner of tools: 1" Belt sander to flatten and cut the button, files to shape the button and flat surfaces, dremmel to round the saddle, and sand paper of course.

I'll get it with time, be the stems seem to be the hardest for me still. I could use a simple step by step on creating a good button if anyone would care to offer

[Sasquatch]

Great idea. I will do this next time I cut a stem, get a series of pix.

[Growley]

Great idea. I will do this next time I cut a stem, get a series of pix.

That will be great. I watched Rad do it once in person, but he made it look too easy. I think somehow he actually stopped time when he showed me, and while it only "seemed" like 15 seconds to me, it was actually about 30 that minutes he spent on it.

[Sasquatch]

That sounds about right. Used to take me about 2 hours to get a rod into anything even resembling a stemmish sort of shap, now it's like 15 minutes and it's near done. My methods probably aren't great, but I'm getting very good at them!

[Growley]

Cool pipe. I think your shaping is pretty good. Your stem needs a bit of work; here's what I would do:
1. Thin it out just behind the saddle. If you feel you need the bulk, at least thin the edges of the stem out, so you have a domed stem with a narrow edge like the pipe you were imitating.
2. Try to eliminate that gap! Are you using delrin?
3. Buff/Polish the stem more. Shininess covers a multitude of sins. If you sand to about 400, you can go straight to red compound, touch some white to it and you're done.

Keep up the good work.

Thanks for the feedback. I know I need to, but I'm SO nervous to thin it out more! I took it down to (4.26 mm or .168 thousandths? ) and couldn't bear to try to get it down more. I was up til 2:00 AM working on it and was just sure I'd sand through it if I went further Maybe I'll get the guts to try more after I've admired it a bit longer.

I think what you're seeing is less of a gap and more of a need for more sanding on the shank. I went back and examined it and the fit is tight, however....the shank is slight larger diameter than the stem creating a slight lip, so it makes it look like the two don't come together...because they don't. You can feel the lip with your fingernail if you scrape from stem to shank, at least from what I can tell. I haven't tried delrin yet. I'm cutting my tenons.

Buffing - I can't figure out why I can't get it shinier. I did the following (excluding staining) : 150, 220, 320, 400, Red Trip, 600, 800, 1,000, 1500, then White and carnuba. I figure'd that'd do it. I'm beginning to wonder if my red and white aren't very good or if I need better buffs...or more experience. I got the red and white from Grizzly.

Thanks so much for your help! I'll probably go back and re-work the stem a bit

[Growley]

That sounds about right. Used to take me about 2 hours to get a rod into anything even resembling a stemmish sort of shap, now it's like 15 minutes and it's near done. My methods probably aren't great, but I'm getting very good at them!

Yeah, once a get a good repeatable process that works for me I'll be fine I'm sure. Great eye on the shape difference. I hadn't seen that. I'd like to blame the difference on his extremely unbelievable high gloss photo, and slight difference in angle of the two pics...but I think you're right. he's got the fat bottom pipe.

I hear a tune coming on..

"Fat bottom pipes you make the rockin' world go round..."

[jogilli]

I think you did a good job of copying.. you have to start somewhere.. as for the the mouthpiece.. just keep sanding.. until you get a thin diameter.. you will eventually be able to almost feel it.. I use a metal file behind the button to check out the distance above and below the air hole... and sometimes just go a little bit more... leave some material for the bufffer and polish to remove

wasting a mouthpiece isn't what I prefer to do, but w/a airhole of 1.8 to 2mm I try to get down to under 4mm before I buff and the buff usually takes a little more off.. best to date is close to 3.0.. .5mm on both sides.. its one I kept.. anything near 3.4 to 3.6 is my goal.. but depending on the weight of the pipe don't always make that

james

[Growley]

I think you did a good job of copying.. you have to start somewhere.. as for the the mouthpiece.. just keep sanding.. until you get a thin diameter.. you will eventually be able to almost feel it.. I use a metal file behind the button to check out the distance above and below the air hole... and sometimes just go a little bit more... leave some material for the bufffer and polish to remove

wasting a mouthpiece isn't what I prefer to do, but w/a airhole of 1.8 to 2mm I try to get down to under 4mm before I buff and the buff usually takes a little more off.. best to date is close to 3.0.. .5mm on both sides.. its one I kept.. anything near 3.4 to 3.6 is my goal.. but depending on the weight of the pipe don't always make that

james

You know...I've never even considered how many mm's my 1/16 drill bit is. I think it give me a little more of a secure feeling to think about it that way. My bit measures 1.58mm. On one hand, I've got all KINDS of room to work with. On the other hand we're only talking about millimeters here. I can't tell if I'm stressed or relieved. LOL.

[jogilli]

Funny.. it probably shouldn't be but working in mm actually makes it easier for me.. fractions are soooooo hard...

I have about a 50/50 mix of fraction and mm bits.. and find myself always reaching for the mm and using the 1/16 only for finishing the last bit of the mouthpiece when drilling and when widening the air hole.. my calipers do both. but again mm makes it much easier to judge than .09216 ..

[Sasquatch]

Once you're at tripoli, going back to paper is basically a waste of time.

Assume red tripoli is around 800 grit, it's also lubricated, so it cuts really fine. Moving to the white diamond after that is fine.

There's a couple things that lead to a nice finish - one is really thorough sanding at about 220 and 320 - no scratches left from anything else. After 320, there should be no visible scratches on the pipe at all.

Right around there, a guy starts staining, and this might require another scrub with 320, or you might go to tripoli.

Setting the stain at some point with a very thin coat of shellac will also give the surface a sort of background for the wax to set up on.

Then if you run tripoli or the white diamond on top of this spit coat of shellac it'll really shine up.

Wearing gloves is helpful - keep the oils on your hands off the pipe.

To me, it looks like you are sanding pretty well, so more time on the buffs is probably the answer.

[Growley]

Once you're at tripoli, going back to paper is basically a waste of time.

Assume red tripoli is around 800 grit, it's also lubricated, so it cuts really fine. Moving to the white diamond after that is fine.

There's a couple things that lead to a nice finish - one is really thorough sanding at about 220 and 320 - no scratches left from anything else. After 320, there should be no visible scratches on the pipe at all.

Right around there, a guy starts staining, and this might require another scrub with 320, or you might go to tripoli.

Setting the stain at some point with a very thin coat of shellac will also give the surface a sort of background for the wax to set up on.

Then if you run tripoli or the white diamond on top of this spit coat of shellac it'll really shine up.

Wearing gloves is helpful - keep the oils on your hands off the pipe.

To me, it looks like you are sanding pretty well, so more time on the buffs is probably the answer.

Hmmm, some great stuff to think about. I'm all hands on when it comes to sanding. I've often felt the wood actually change from holding it too much. I've wondered about gloves. Seeing that it's hot here all the time, dry hands aren't my thing.

Still haven't figured out the shellac yet. I tried some and it gave it a greenish tint. I think it was too think or too cheap. What kind do you use?

[hawky454]

Brian, very impressive, Considering that this is what, your 6th pipe? I would say you did one hell of a job there. Keep up the good work my man!

[Growley]

Brian, very impressive, Considering that this is what, your 6th pipe? I would say you did one hell of a job there. Keep up the good work my man!

This was # 7. I'm going to quit counting after #10.

[wdteipen]

For some reason I can't see any of Growley's pics. Too bad because it sounds like you're making some nice pipes.

[Archer]

It's because he said "self, that BMW was beautiful, these pipes better make up for it!"

[kkendall]

Once you're at tripoli, going back to paper is basically a waste of time.

Assume red tripoli is around 800 grit, it's also lubricated, so it cuts really fine. Moving to the white diamond after that is fine.

There's a couple things that lead to a nice finish - one is really thorough sanding at about 220 and 320 - no scratches left from anything else. After 320, there should be no visible scratches on the pipe at all.

Right around there, a guy starts staining, and this might require another scrub with 320, or you might go to tripoli.

Setting the stain at some point with a very thin coat of shellac will also give the surface a sort of background for the wax to set up on.

Then if you run tripoli or the white diamond on top of this spit coat of shellac it'll really shine up.

Wearing gloves is helpful - keep the oils on your hands off the pipe.

To me, it looks like you are sanding pretty well, so more time on the buffs is probably the answer.

Another thing you might consider ... spray the pipe down with water after sanding with 320, then sand with the 400... spray it again... then sand it again w/400.

Also - after using the trip wheel (before as well as after staining), clean the pipe with alcohol to get the grease off.

[Archer]

I have also found that I have to keep touching the wheel with Carnauba. I believe you can build coats with it, someone correct me if I am wrong. It always seems that i buff once to a shine, the hit the wheel, buff again to a shine, hit the wheel, and you get the picture...it seems to "feel" deeper...