Machined pipes.New Factory in Nashville.

[LatakiaLover]

I think a "public service announcement" type of thing would avoid most of the definition and organizational challenges that trying to form a true guild would present, as well as be a much simpler project logistically.

In a perfect world, a filmed presentation by someone whose qualifications were beyond question is all it would take. Lars Ivarsson, maybe, or Bo Nordh if he were still with us. Think song writing covered by Paul McCartney, or a primer by Ansel Adams on photographic technique. Argument wouldn't just be futile, it would be absurd.

The collaborative aspect could then be covered with a simple list of endorsements. A long list of who's who in the PipeWorld who (in effect) say, "Yup, that's the situation, all right. Lars knows his shit. Listen to him."

If the Internet, Twitter, Instagram, and etc. were then carpet bombed with such a video by every endorser putting a link-equivalent in his tagline, signature, and website, it wouldn't take long for the basics of pipe quality to become common knowledge instead of esoteric knowledge.

People in general respond well to free, no-strings-attached information like that. I know it from personal experience. A while back I put a hastily shot, virtually unedited bit of workshop info on YouTube (the "how to shape & polish the button and bite zone" thing) that I guessed would get between 50 and 200 views in its lifetime. It was pointed to/linked to nothing. The last time I looked, the two parts totaled over 9,000 views. When the information presented has no axe to grind, is free of promotional or sales-y stuff, and is only put on the table for people to do with what they wish, they tend to pick it up, put it in their pocket, and use it. (I've seen a dramatic improvement in bite zones and buttons in both my repair work and as a KC contest judge since it came out.)

And I have no name recognition at all.

The Chicago show is two months away. It might still be possible to schedule an hour in a banquet room for a meeting to arrange the making of a PSA-style video. If Todd were to lead it and send invitations to other high-profile and respected carvers in advance, I bet it would be well attended, too.

[jogilli]

my fellow Americans... interesting read.. not withstanding the desire to achieve excellence in your art.. offer a quality product and forgo the 'pipe turd' but are you understanding what your reading. Has the capitalistic blood been slowly bleed from your veins? Creation of a Pipe Makers Alliance soon to be split into two camps because alliances always go well depending on the viewpoint of those in charge of setting the standard and reaping the most benefit thereof.. The instagram/facebook/internet spat has already been read by every pipemaker I personally know.. Simply amazing that it has caused this much debate..... and whom will become the members.... all the pipe makers in Tennessee? those in California, Texas.. or will the Danish, German, Italians, Russians and Chinese rush to join the ranks of the "Alliance". Who becomes the so called leader of the inner circle of the "alliance"? what's are the hierarchy requirements associated with gaining membership.. best friends with the overlord, or X-number of years of making quality pipes.. and whom determines quality pipes.. only those listed on U.S. retailers websites.. or will ratings from makers on international web sites also count as well.

Don't get me wrong.. standards being just that.. standards .. a base.. two hole connected properly.. nice shaping around the pivot point... comfortable stem.. Will Mimmo Briar be the better standard compared to Manno Briar, Algerian, Spanish, Greece.. NYH stems better than SEM... and not to mention preformed (and modified) stems... Name recognition? Branding?

It'll be interesting to see this play out. many many many questions.. but I will say it has been entertaining watching the spat.

james

[LatakiaLover]

Jogilli --- we posted at the same time. What I described in the post just above yours addresses most of your concerns, I think.

[PremalChheda]

I nominate Premal! j/k In all seriousness It would be cool if someone who had access to factory pipes, "artisan" pipes, and high grades, did a quick video explaining what you should be looking for in pipes that were in the $150 and below range, $200 to $300 range, $350 to $500 range, and so on up to high grade pipes. Maybe give a demo what you should or shouldn't see at that given price. could be a conglomeration of opinions from the forum or written by someone here and spoken by a respected player in the pipe game. We could all blast it out on social media and crush these turds that wont flush.

Darth Chheda!

All kidding aside, if there is to be pipe makers properly qualified to lead a "guild" or be the face of it, it would have to be some that have extensive experience, somewhat retired(not heavily involved in the business), widely respected, smart, charismatic, etc...

That being said, I would like to be involved in some capacity and contribute as a member.

[Joe Hinkle Pipes]

You can't be pipe Yoda AND Darth Chheda. Its just not fair.

[wdteipen]

I really like the idea of an educational video. Some of us try to educate via the social media but, as has been mentioned, if you don't have a well established, respected reputation in the community, what you say is mostly regarded as your opinion rather than fact. Most of the guys with a lot of experience and respected reputation either don't participate on social media outside of PMF or do so sparingly like Todd, Tyler, Rad, Bruce, George, and Premal to name a few.

I think the idea of a pipe maker's guild is an interesting idea but, as James points out, the logistics would be a nightmare. I can tell you that I certainly wouldn't want to be on the outside of that one. I can see how it would definitely narrow the playing field with the potential to be harmful to the future of our craft by dissuading potential new pipemakers. This would have to be handled with great care and attention.

[Sasquatch]

Very, very difficult to do this without hurting someone, even if you mean well. Here's a recent snippet of dialogue.

"Wow! I just read the "pipe education" on the Briarworks International website and basically I learned if you carve pipes or are a pipe company that sells pipes for less than $300 then you are idiots who don't know what you are doing. I was interested in a couple of their pipes until I read that arrogant piece of bullfeces."

This from: http://pipesmokersforum.com/community/t ... ipe.45639/



Now, I didn't say "pipe turds" once, I was in full diplomatic mode. But this shows you how delicate a surface this is to walk on - hurting the feelings of Joe Turd-lover rather being an emotionless exercise in carving education. Joe Turdcarver doesn't want to pick his game up - a) why should he and b) he thinks it's up. Joe Turdlover feels the same.

Are these guys part of the same crowd that say "all pipes smoke the same, why would I pay 300 dollars for one?". Yeah, some are. Some are a little more pretentious - some want to be part of this artisan-made wave, some just want a better pipe for the buck, and see this as a means to an end. It's very tough to put a voice into this crowd that says "Hey, you guys are all wrong-headed here..."

[fiddlestix]

I know that posting 6 pages in qualifies me as properly late to the party, but as one of the newer pipe makers here, This thread has been really interesting. Hopefully a little perspective from a new guy could be helpful... quite possibly it won't be. But maybe you'll indulge me anyhow.

First off, let me say that I like the idea of the "PSA/educate the consumer" type approach. One of the things that I have been so incredibly impressed by since tackling this whole pipe making endeavor is the willingness of so many of you truly talented and successful, more seasoned veterans of the craft, to spend time and energy educating beginners like myself. Not only online here on the forum, but directly via the phone, email, at shows, facebook private message sessions, google+ chats, and even one on one in your shops. I've expressed it to some of you individually, but let me pause for a moment to say it in a little more public manner... Thank you!!! It really is a credit to each of you and speaks volumes about your passion for the world of pipe making. I know that I have learned far more and progressed as a pipe maker exponentially faster as a result. I do see, however, that the recent boom in social media pipe presentation (both makers and "retailers") has had an impact. Truth be told, I'm a product of said boom to some extent. Seeing the posts of another new guy/friend on social media is what put the thought in my head that, "I need to try my hand at that." That boom has also created A LOT of new pipe buyers. I don't think there is an equivalent resource for them. I think aspiring collectors would be well served to spend some time at least lurking here as well, but I doubt that actually happens all that often. I think in some ways, aspiring pipe collectors face a similar choice as aspiring pipe makers. How serious am I going to be about this? Is this a passing phase, that has grabbed my interest for the moment and will be soon replaced by the next fad or am I hoping to build a quality collection and know why I choose the pieces I choose? I don't know that those who hope to be long term, serious collectors have similar resources to learn the finer points of their new hobby as we do. Outside of the occasional pipe show, for better or worse, social media is by default the most accessible alternative.

I'm probably guilty of some of the annoying social media behavior that has been covered in this thread. I've posted 20 different pictures of a pipe that I was working on and been proud as a peacock when the likes and comments started rolling in. Fortunately, I've had some much more educated and honest critique here on PMF to temper that. I've also got to endure the uninformed buyer side of this equation as well. Posting a picture and getting 5, one line emails asking how much, only to reply and never hear from them again. Not a complaint as much as an observation. I'm in no man's land in a way. I don't have retailers yet and would struggle to keep them supplied if I did. The retailers that I could have are not really the ones I want as I am concerned about potentially pigeon-holing myself into a certain category that I don't necessarily want to be in. On top of all of that, my situation simply won't allow me to make pipes without selling them. I've worked two jobs for as long as I can remember and if I'm going to spend time and money making pipes, I gotta sell them... Social media is, for the time being, the best option I can find as well. I should say that IG has connected me with at least a few of, what I consider, good appropriate customers. By that I mean customers that have what seems to be a good eye, a desire to continue collecting and are buying my pipes because, right or wrong, they feel like my work is a decent value and they hope to follow my little burgeoning career in pipe making. I try to be abundantly honest with them about how new I am at this. With that understanding, they have still felt compelled to buy, in some cases, multiple pipes. I can't say that down the road they won't change their mind about the value of my work, but at this point in my pipe making career and at this point in their pipe collecting career, their budget and wants line up with my offerings. So in my experience, social media, as flawed as it may be, can work.

I don't say this out loud often, out of fear of sounding ridiculous, but my goal is to one day be among the best at this. I don't know if I've got it in me or not, but I plan to find out. With that goal in mind, I'll utilize social media for the time being and sell a few pipes and keep trying to improve until I've opened up some better avenues.

I didn't set out to write a treatise this morning so with that, I need to quit rambling and get back to the day job.

Mark

[ToddJohnson]

my fellow Americans... interesting read.. not withstanding the desire to achieve excellence in your art.. offer a quality product and forgo the 'pipe turd' but are you understanding what your reading. Has the capitalistic blood been slowly bleed from your veins? Creation of a Pipe Makers Alliance soon to be split into two camps because alliances always go well depending on the viewpoint of those in charge of setting the standard and reaping the most benefit thereof.. The instagram/facebook/internet spat has already been read by every pipemaker I personally know.. Simply amazing that it has caused this much debate..... and whom will become the members.... all the pipe makers in Tennessee? those in California, Texas.. or will the Danish, German, Italians, Russians and Chinese rush to join the ranks of the "Alliance". Who becomes the so called leader of the inner circle of the "alliance"? what's are the hierarchy requirements associated with gaining membership.. best friends with the overlord, or X-number of years of making quality pipes.. and whom determines quality pipes.. only those listed on U.S. retailers websites.. or will ratings from makers on international web sites also count as well.

Well, the Illuminati objection was bound to be first. Surely a group of like minded individuals who share common goals of quality, integrity, and respect for the consumer could not be formed without it becoming a diabolical oligarchy, hellbent on brainwashing the masses, taking their freedom, and bleeding them dry, could it?

To answer a few of your questions from my own perspective, I think 1) Germans, Italians, Chinese etc. would probably not be included in a group of American pipe makers. 2) "Membership" should be dependent on one's willingness to do excellent work, do their own work, demonstrate respect for the consumer, etc. The goal should not be to keep anyone out, but to bring others in. If you're not making/selling pipes with a great deal of integrity now, perhaps membership in a group of individuals who are could serve as encouragement to do so moving forward. In this scenario, the pipe maker, the collector, and the pipe world all win, because the level of craftsmanship rises collectively. 3) I think "time in business" is important and should play a factor. There's bound to be a reasonable but flexible bar that could be set so that no serious pipe makers are left out 4) I think where you sell your pipes is important because it serves as something of a litmus test for whether you're serious about this endeavor, or just looking for maximum exposure in the briefest period of time with quick cash as the chief goal.

Don't get me wrong.. standards being just that.. standards .. a base.. two hole connected properly.. nice shaping around the pivot point... comfortable stem.. Will Mimmo Briar be the better standard compared to Manno Briar, Algerian, Spanish, Greece.. NYH stems better than SEM... and not to mention preformed (and modified) stems... Name recognition? Branding?

I think the "standards" you've laid out only make something a functional smoking instrument, not necessarily a high quality pipe, crafted with care, intentionality, and respect. The "standard" will need to be more than "it has two holes that line up" or it is a useless standard. Like Solomon Pipes said, "that's first day stuff."

Personally, I think Mimmo's briar is a better investment than all other sources of briar because of his vetting and curing process. It's more expensive, but experience has taught me it's also more likely to give me the desired result on a very consistent basis. Thus, it's "better" only because it places one less impediment on my desired path toward excellence.

That said, I've used briar from every potential source, and good briar can be had from a number of different places. The question is more how you use it. For instance, I've seen pipe makers drill the chamber in a block of briar and find that it's still wet to the touch inside. Declaring "git 'er dun," finishing that block out the same day, and shipping it to a customer the next day does not speak highly of a carver's personal integrity. Even if you have bills to pay, that's patently disrespectful--both to the craft and to the customer--no matter where the briar comes from.

It'll be interesting to see this play out. many many many questions.. but I will say it has been entertaining watching the spat.

I think this is probably less of a "spat," and more of a summit. From your perspective, maybe it looks more like a putsch. Time will tell. These are serious issues for many of us, but I can see how someone for whom they are not might enjoy watching and commenting from the relative safety of the audience. Far less to be risked from out there.

TJ

[The Smoking Yeti]

Well, the Illuminati objection was bound to be first. Surely a group of like minded individuals who share common goals of quality, integrity, and respect for the consumer could not be formed without it becoming a diabolical oligarchy, hellbent on brainwashing the masses, taking their freedom, and bleeding them dry, could it?

TJ

Two words: French Revolution.

All that said, I'd like to think of this is a "loose coalition" of pipe-makers. I think you're right about establishing some sort of frame-work for people to learn what goes into a good pipe, and how to make said good pipe.

As Sasquatch pointed out though, some people mistake positive intentions for snobbery. I went back and read the Pipe Education page on BWI, and I seriously don't get how he took what was written as snobbery. Somebody tells you the things to look for in a well-made pipe and suddenly they're a snob? Seriously? I don't think the majority of consumers will be upset to have some guidance in making informed purchases.

[wdteipen]

I think it would be better to form pipe gangs. They've already started forming. Then, at pipe shows, we can have battles like the news casters on Anchorman.

[jogilli]

Todd

the way you laid out points of my input, actually make some sort of sense.. I missed the part where it was focused on American makers.. my bad

Now lets see if I can answer the rest, without sounding like a 3 year old. "Time in Business" is too subjective.. many folks are doing this after their day jobs, on weekends, and during thier free time.. me being one of them.. so what takes a full time maker a few months to learn, adjust, and apply is shorter than what it takes will take somebody who does this in more of a hobby sense. No excuse, just a fact..and yet it doesn't mean that the hobbyist isn't striving for excellence with each pipe.. and of course the end goal being to sale that item, raise their price point and have a reasonable worthy object for sale with a reasonable rate of return. Be that via retailers who take a decent chuck of the pipe price or through individuals venues that leave more in the makers pocket. Or when they sale from individual websites...

Now the winey part.. not everybody can make the shows, get the exposure, and meet all the customers in the US market.. me being one who just happens to live and work outside the US. So name recognition takes a little longer, while instragram, FB, and Forums are a great aid is achieving some sort of name recognition within the market.. but that's getting off point isn't it.

The point is about creating a quality product. The main intent I think you getting at is the learning process and I've been pretty lucky to just happen to live in Pipe Making Mecca, so I'm really keen on the playing out of the intent on what your attempting to address, and what end goal the "Pipe Making Mentorship" trying to achieve.... When in the states I stop by and chat with makers.. the same thing I do over here... again part of the learning and critique process... but "from an outsiders view" the most visible thing being discussed seems to be the basis of "summit" you mentioned as being a driving reason for the concern.... and I'm not the only "outside the continental US" who has noticed this.. the internet is everywhere

in short, the proof is in the pudding and evident in the pipes not in words.. and the venue could be a good thing.. the tricky part is keeping profit out of the ground reasoning behind the idea.

time will tell
james

[LatakiaLover]

As Sasquatch pointed out though, some people mistake positive intentions for snobbery. I went back and read the Pipe Education page on BWI, and I seriously don't get how he took what was written as snobbery. Somebody tells you the things to look for in a well-made pipe and suddenly they're a snob? Seriously? I don't think the majority of consumers will be upset to have some guidance in making informed purchases.

As a general thing, humans decide what they want or like FIRST according to what "feels right" or serves their self-interest, then deal with the attendant facts AFTERWARD, championing those which support their decision, and rejecting, denying, burying, distorting, etc. those which don't.

Nothing pipe-specific about it, and nothing Todd could have prevented no matter how he worded his site's education page.

In fact, the only way Todd could have avoided offending someone whose mind was made up long ago that their life's mission was to be offended at every possible opportunity would have been to leave the education page off altogether.

[ToddJohnson]

James,

One reason "time in business" is an important factor is that it demonstrates one's dedication to this as something other than a side hobby or passing fad. I could list dozens of guys' names who made a brief appearance, showed some or even a lot of promise, then dropped off the face of the Earth without even a ripple. This is one of the reasons I say there's a fundamental difference between guys who happen to make pipes, and pipemakers.

I remember a conversation I had with Lars several years ago in a little bar in Copenhagen while we were waiting for Nanna to arrive. He told me a story that made a tremendous impression on me. We were discussing Jess, who I was visiting later that day. Bonnie was in the final months of her battle with ALS, and Jess was still struggling to force himself back into the workshop.

Lars told me something about when the Japanese economy collapsed in the late '80's and the global recession that ensued. The Danes had developed Japan into a very important market and, at the time, something like 60% of their production went there. Overnight, it just stopped--none of their customers in Japan were buying pipes anymore and they were all in the same basic stage of life I'm in now--wife, mortgage, young kids, tuition, etc. It got pretty dire, and they had no idea how long it would last or how they would come out of it.

So Lars, Jess, Per, Ulf, Teddy, Jorn Micke--all of them--got together to strategize and discuss the situation. What Lars said is this, and I will never forget it. The only thing that really came out of the meeting was, more or less, a commitment to one another that they were all pipemakers, and would not become something else because the boom had gone bust. If they had to sell their shoes, they would make pipes barefoot. If they had to consolidate space, share briar, buy each other's pipes, they would do it to continue making pipes.

Right now there's a boom--if not in quality or price, then certainly in popularity--and when it goes bust--which it will--only real pipemakers will be left, because they're the guys who make pipes when the money's easy and also when it is very hard earned. The market will always cull the field, but for those of us who consider this our career--even our vocation--it's worth taking some constructive steps to mitigate the damage currently being done.

What this has to do with profit, or who profits from it in your opinion, I can't understand. In my mind this has to do with preserving and furthering the pipe culture, specifically in the US--where most of the pipe making signal-to-noise ratio has gone berserk--but globally as well. It's all one big community, and I think it is in all our interests to grow it in a constructive and responsible manner. For every new guy that has found a beautiful and carefully crafted Instagram bargain, I'd bet there are five who've bought ugly pipes, found out they don't enjoy them (because they were so poorly made) then threw them in a drawer and moved on to the next thing, never to be heard from again. I consider that a net loss for everyone here.

Despite being virtually fluent in ESL, (:D) I don't understand what this means: You said "but "from an outsiders view" the most visible thing being discussed seems to be the basis of "summit" you mentioned as being a driving reason for the concern.... and I'm not the only "outside the continental US" who has noticed this.. the internet is everywhere" If you can explain this more clearly I'd love to know what you mean.

TJ

[jogilli]

Nicely articulated... And what you wrote makes perfect sense now... I just might be seeing the basis for what your alluding to with the effort...

My profit comment is irrelevant, while preserving the culture of pipe making isn't. THat culture is what I enjoy the most.. Getting together with like minded people, sharing ideas, improving, and enjoying the art... Studying under the best makers you can and exchanging ideas has been my endevour for the past six years.. Enjoyment, so to say, of the journey itself

James

[The Smoking Yeti]

Todd, that's an amazing story! I want to be sitting in a bar in Copenhagen with Lars some day....

The mentality of those guys is truly amazing. It's really hard to imagine Lars of all people struggling to sell pipes, it really puts things in perspective.

Most people making pipes these days absolutely do not have that mentality.

[Alden]

I think it's a fantastic and needed idea. I'm glad to see you pushing towards real action on it Todd.
Maybe some Regional groups would help streamline the ideals, with a certain level of critique taking place in these regional groups and then interaction between the regional groups giving more direction to the whole.
We actually sort of have this happening already, informally.

[sethile]

Wow, great story about the Danes weathering the last big bust, Todd. That is so cool! Great pipe makers that love making pipes will hang in there when this currently inflated market in the US plays itself out. The fools that thought this was an easy way to make money will fall by the wayside. We should all be ready to buy up a bunch of surplus briar and ebonite, and maybe pick up some tooling for pennies on the dollar...

I understand the Russian market has taken a huge hit lately. My guess is that hammered the Danes pretty heavily again. I have not sold any pipes to Russian collectors, but I know they were buying a bunch of expensive pipes for a while. The same thing will eventually happen, likely soon, to the market in China.

The only danger I think we really face is trying to take advantage of the inflated markets by over pricing our pipes. Once the market corrects you'll have a lot of explaining to do to regular customers that hang in there with you about why your pipes are suddenly selling for half as much as the one they bought from you last year!

[LatakiaLover]

George,

we agree point-for-point on this
TJ

Thus Wilbur was granted wings, and flew sluggishly into the sunset.

Now that's pure poetry, right there, Mr. Micah.

Thing is, Todd and I actually get along great.

Except when we don't.

[ToddJohnson]

The only danger I think we really face is trying to take advantage of the inflated markets by over pricing our pipes. Once the market corrects you'll have a lot of explaining to do to regular customers that hang in there with you about why your pipes are suddenly selling for half as much as the one they bought from you last year!

Indeed, Scott. This is one of those things that would go on my "respect for the customer" list. There's a craftsmanship aspect to showing respect for the customer, but there are other aspects as well. One of them is offering your work for the same price across the board. Inflating prices for the Chinese market is a short play, and I've seen particular "makers of pipes" do this very thing. Why do I differentiate between "real" pipemakers and guys who happen--at the moment--to make pipes? Because doing something like this damages your reputation long term, and disrupts the market you should be working to grow and support in hopes that it will in turn help to support you. Basically, real pipe makers don't do that.

It's like pulling a plant out of your vegetable garden by the roots so you can shake every last edible morsel off of it RIGHT NOW!. Great, it'll provide you with one big meal, and you'll be fat and happy for a short time, but when you go back to it again, and you're hungry, all you're gonna find is a hole in the ground.

TJ