The psychology of rarity

For the things that don't fit neatly into the other categories.
E.L.Cooley
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Location: Colorado Springs, Co

Re: The psychology of rarity

Post by E.L.Cooley »

RadDavis wrote:
LatakiaLover wrote:
Alden wrote:
When I was a younger whippersnapper, I was obsessed with the Doors, wanted to be Jim Morrison when I growed up. I got as far as the alcoholic binges and personality disorders. Turns out that doesn't pay as good as I thought, so now I make pipes
That's ^^^^ much more colorful and succinct than this vvvv...
ABOUT RYAN

Born in Texas in 1979, I spent my childhood roaming the woods and creeks near the Sabine River in North Texas. Perhaps nothing in life shaped me as much as the quiet solitude of scrub oaks, cracked clay and long summer days. I have spent the rest of my life in and around the city of Dallas, but that love of nature and quiet has never left my soul.

Texas schools are strong in arts and vocational training, and over the years I studied Ceramics, Sculpting, Drawing, Painting, Horticulture, Leatherworking, and Wood Turning. I never considered this a foundation, but I find myself drawing on all of these experiences as I move forward and grow as a Pipemaker.
You should six the birdsong & bunnies thing and give 'em the real deal, Ryan. A simple cut-n-paste is all it would take. :twisted: :lol: :twisted:
Here's my favorite lyric from the Doors, and pretty much for all time: "There's a killer on the road, His brain is squirmin' like a toad..." This is just powerful imagery for me and pretty much sums up Ryan's personality. :lol: :lol:

Rad

"Father? Yes son? I want to kill you!" No correlation to my dad he's my hero. But as a young impressionable boy I thought how could this guy say that in a song omg. It was an 8track.


Sent from my banana phone.
Yak
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Re: The psychology of rarity

Post by Yak »

Lydia Mordkovitch has owned a 1746 Niccolo Gagliano since the 1970s. "It had been kept in a cupboard for about 30 years, and it took me two or three years to develop the sound. I like it, but over the years, I've borrowed a variety of Strads and a Guadagnini for recordings and very important concerts because they have something more 'special.' For example, for the Taneyev recording, I borrowed a Strad from the Royal Academy of Music, because I like its very clear sound. I have it with me at the moment, because I'm recording next week and I need to get used to it again."

http://www.allthingsstrings.com/layout/ ... ordkovitch

Stratospheric prices for the best instruments mean that they are increasingly rarely heard. The only way top players can rescue the best instruments from silence is by relying on the kindness of collectors/investors.

Thus virtuoso Robert McDuffie spent five years looking for patrons to help him finance the $1.6 million del Gesu he wanted. He eases his instrument. [ http://www.nytimes.com/2001/02/06/arts/06VIOL.html ] from the 16 partners who bought it (with hopes of selling it later at an enormous profit) and for the privilege of using it McDuffie also pays insurance and maintenance of about $15,000-$20,000 per year.

The Singapore government purchased a $600,000 Guadagnini which it awards to a young violinist [Singapore Straits-Times] for three years. Likewise Canada's Canada Council has started an instrument bank [CBC] from which it loans high-quality instruments to promising musicians for a period of time. The National Bank of Austria owns dozens of instruments which it loans out to members of the Vienna Philharmonic and others.

http://www.artsjournal.com/artswatch/greatviolins.htm
Yak
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Re: The psychology of rarity

Post by Yak »

Jenson: An unfortunate thing happened. I had a big career, was travelling all over the place, and I met my husband in Denver -- I played the Beethoven Concerto there -- and we met, and obviously decided to get married, and I sent out invitations to this upcoming wedding, including sending one to the gentleman who was lending me the Guarnerius del Gesu violin to record, and perform on. He then contacted me, and said "you have two weeks to return the violin, because obviously you're not committed to your career if you're getting married."

Jones: That's why he wanted it back?!

Jenson: You have to understand that 15 years ago, there weren't many women soloists -- with the exception of singers --Anne-Sophie Mutter and me; we really had yet to come on the scene. In the United States, there were maybe a handful of woman soloists. So, I don't think there's a history there to accept that women are soloists and could be committed to their careers. So, I convinced him to let me have it an additional week, and I played Brahms' Concerto in San Francisco. Then, I had to return it, and I thought, "I have a full season, three years booked ahead. There's not going to be a problem, I'll be able to find something to play on." Unfortunately, I was young enough that I didn't want to oppose anyone who was helping me with my career. At that time, I had a manager who was an older gentleman, and I immediately spoke to him about this problem, and he said "well you can't let anybody know you don't have a violin, because if you do, I can't book concerts for you." And I said, "well, if they don't know I don't have a violin, how am I supposed to play these concerts you've booked me to do?" He said, "well that's not my problem." And of course, I had a ten-year recording contract with RCA and I had a recording coming up of the Brahms Concerto with the Philadelphia Orchestra, and they also said they could not help me find an instrument. So, I was kind of left in a quandary, because I couldn't be open about the fact that I didn't have an instrument. But, then again, I was performing concerts. Luckily, I had a friend who was a small dealer, and he would lend me things that were in his shop. Or, at one time I rented a violin. One time I went to an orchestra and I didn't have a violin, so I asked somebody in the violin section if they had an extra instrument I could play on. So, time was passing and my anxiety was rising and I tried every scheme to raise money, to beg, to find something permanent to play on because the instruments I was performing on were very inferior and I was constantly changing. The first year I was without a violin, I played on 23 different instruments.
Interviewer: So it's that important to have a violin made by the Italian masters?

Jenson: Well, there are two reasons why it's so important. The first, of course, is that it's your wooden voicebox. You come to know an instrument, and for me, I'm no longer aware that I'm playing on a violin; I'm just expressing myself. If you can imagine going to a concert hall and Pavarotti is singing, and he gets up on stage and he opens his mouth and it's Phil Collins' voice! But can Pavarotti be the kind of artist he is with someone else's voicebox? Secondly, when I prepared the Brahms Concerto with the Philadelphia Orchestra for a concert, the concertmaster went into the seats to listen, hear the balance, and he came back to me and said "don't try to do any nuances, because they can't hear you anyway." And, at that moment, a realisation came to me that what I was doing by playing with these major orchestras, not knowing what instrument I was going to play on, maybe borrowing the week before sometimes, was irresponsible. I was not being fair to these orchestras. They expect a certain product; I've played with them before. To come back, and not be what they're expecting....you can't be intimate with a violin you've had for a few days, you can't know how it's going to respond on stage. So, I spent a lot of years just trying to find an instrument to play on.

Jones: The Guarnerius del Gesu you played on had such a warm tone, it sounded almost like a viola.

Jenson: Isn't it amazing?!

Jones: So, ideally, your instrument is an extension of your self when you do play?

Jenson: In my best moments, and now I'm feeling that more since I've had my violin now for a couple of years and it feels like it's not changing all the time, which it was going through for about a year. To answer your question: Absolutely. If you don't feel that, if you don't get it, you are not getting there! That's where I want to be that's why I play music, so that the instrument and my relationship with the music goes beyond playing the instrument, it should go directly to expressing what's going on.

http://www.robertjonesphoto.com/dylanajenson.html
Yak
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Re: The psychology of rarity

Post by Yak »

Noah Bendix-Balgley, the Pittsburgh Symphony Orchestra's concertmaster, got a new violin this summer.

It's new only to him, though.

The violin was crafted by Carlo Bergonzi in 1732 in Cremona, Italy, where instrument making flourished for two centuries. Its previous owners include violinists Nigel Kennedy and Margot MacGibbon, but its journey before that is a mystery. Mr. Bendix-Balgley will show it off this weekend when he performs Bruch's "Scottish Fantasy" with the PSO.

He bought the instrument with the help of the PSO, and although the specific details of the purchase are unclear, the transaction likely exceeded $1 million, according to violin experts. It is somewhat common for top orchestras and institutions to provide instruments or financial assistance to musicians looking for instruments.

Bergonzi was an instrument repairer and worked under Antonio Stradivari, the most famous instrument maker in the world, in Cremona. That city experienced a golden era of instrument making from 1550 to 1750, said Christopher Germain, president of the Violin Society of America, a trade organization.

Bergonzi made roughly 50 instruments, compared with Stradivari's 1,000-plus, said Steven Smith, a violin expert and consultant who owns J&A Beare, the London-based dealer that sold the Bergonzi to Mr. Bendix-Balgley.

Working in that environment, Bergonzi produced rare, top-quality instruments, even if they lack the Stradivarius brand recognition, said Mr. Germain, a Philadelphia-based violin maker.

And they are very expensive.

"It would be millions," said Mr. Germain, in estimating the worth of this particular Bergonzi. He mentioned one rare, well-preserved Stradivarius that sold for $16 million at an auction last year, although he said the Bergonzi "would be much less than that."

"Instruments of high caliber range from $1.3 million up to many millions," Mr. Smith said. He said this instrument, which does not have an original head, is not in the top range of prices.

To pay for it, the PSO helped Mr. Bendix-Balgley secure a loan. The PSO reported a roughly $1.5 million deficit for this past fiscal year. Still, such assistance is fairly typical among top-tier professional orchestras, including those in Cleveland, Dallas, New York City, Philadelphia and San Francisco, Mr. Bendix-Balgley said, and it's even more common in Europe.

"It's not like going out to get a new bike," he said, describing the setup as "basically, just like a mortgage."

For the PSO, providing the concertmaster access to top instruments benefits the ensemble's sound, particularly because Mr. Bendix-Balgley performs many solos with the group.

"It's really an investment in the artistic quality," he said.

In a somewhat different arrangement, the PSO helped its previous concertmaster, Andres Cardenes, purchase a 1719 Pietro Guarneri violin. He paid back the loan over time and still owns and uses the instrument, which he said has tripled in value since 1992, when he purchased it.

"Housing's going down and the economy's tanking, but violins never lose their value," said Mr. Cardenes, who declined who say how much his violin is worth.

The relationship between a patron, a musician and an instrument goes back centuries, Mr. Germain said. Counts, members of royal families and businesspeople have loaned instruments to make a savvy investment and cultivate relationships with players. Now, many professional soloists use instruments on loan from institutions such as banks, which make money on the venture and gain goodwill and PR from having their brands associated with top talent.

The arrangements vary, Mr. Smith said. Sometimes orchestras rely on gifts, funds or sponsors to make a purchase. Other times, orchestras own an instrument and loan it out to its concertmaster. Mr. Cardenes said that latter practice is more widespread than the PSO's arrangement. Both he and Mr. Bendix-Balgley approached the orchestra about getting new violins.

When he began with the PSO in 2011, Mr. Bendix-Balgley knew the position would require a top-notch instrument, he said. He liked the dark sound of his previous instrument, a Lorenzo Ventapane from the early 1800s.

Still, he said, "I felt like the position here demands a violin of the top quality."

He tried out a handful of violins at a time, at shops in cities from Chicago to London. If one struck his fancy, he brought it back to Pittsburgh, where he would give it a two-week test drive. The Bergonzi was the last one he tried, and he bought the instrument early last summer.

He considered several factors. The violin needed to inspire him and have the dark sound he preferred, while offering a range of musical colors. It had to be a comfortable size and perform well in different contexts, from leading the PSO string section to playing chamber music or solos. And it needed to do all that particularly well in Heinz Hall and in other concert halls across the world where he and the PSO might perform.

"It's balanced across all the strings. At the same time, I think each of the strings has its own personality," he said.

The top E string is "very clear and sweet, projects very well;" the middle A and D strings have "a real warmth, but also a breadth of sound;" the bottom G is dark and "husky," allowing him to "dig into it." ("That was a must-have, so to speak.")

It sounds like a match made in heaven.

http://www.post-gazette.com/ae/music/20 ... z32euNELtv
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RadDavis
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Re: The psychology of rarity

Post by RadDavis »

For fuck's sakes, Yak! These posts are way too long. I can't read all of that shit. :)

Please try to be more succinct with your posts about violins. :wink:

And just for the hell of it, try posting some shit about pipes. :P

Rad
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W.Pastuch
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Re: The psychology of rarity

Post by W.Pastuch »

Rad, quick summary for you: old italian violins are the shit! :D


But honestly, I cannot understand how George and you can seriously be having this argument.

The laws of physics are the same for everyone and they have no mercy - science doesn't have emotions. So you can arrange a duel between violins and settle it once and for all.
If objective and well prepared experiments prove that there is nothing special acoustically about old violins, well that means those are the scientific facts, just have to accept that.

On the other hand there is the subjective feeling and "metaphysical" impression that an object can cause. A 300 year old violin is a priceless piece of wood because for thousands and thousands and thousands of hours people have made it vibrate at a certain pitch, they have expressed their emotions through it, they have used it intensively and cared for it for longer than any man has ever lived. Does that change something? Hell yes, the wooden box might sound very similar or the same as a modern one, but the emotional charge is infinite. That can make a player feel better, it can make him think the sound is better, it can actually motivate him to play better. That's enough to make any acoustic measurements irrelevant.

If I had money stashed in my mattress I would by a Stradivari or a Guarnieri just to own a 300 year old wooden box of human memories :)
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Sasquatch
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Re: The psychology of rarity

Post by Sasquatch »

I would buy a Ferrari and probably crash it immediately.
ALL YOUR PIPE ARE BELONG TO US!
Yak
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Re: The psychology of rarity

Post by Yak »

First a quick refresher on the way "science" works (contrasted with the way the fraud that impersonates it does). Take your time and make sure you've really got it. It's not a difficult principle to grasp but, in today's world, it's almost a novel idea : that the data determine the conclusions, and not the other way round. IOW, the way something actually DOES work overrules the way you might be convinced that it can't work because of faith in your previous beliefs.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-VrvsIJehZPU/U ... od-020.jpg

Got it ? Good.
Jan. 23, 2012 -- A Stradivarius cello with a remarkable pedigree sold last week for more than $6 million to an anonymous arts patron in Montreal, according to Christopher Reuning, the rare-instrument dealer in Boston who handled the sale. It belonged to the New Jersey-born cellist Bernard Greenhouse, who co-founded the Beaux Arts Trio and who died in 2011. Made in 1707, the instrument is one of only 60 Stradivarius cellos that have survived.

Greenhouse owned and played the Stanlein cello for 54 years. “There's a lusciousness about the sound,” the cellist once said, according to the brochure for the instrument sale. “Under the ear it's a bit coarse, but this turns to velvet out in the hall, in the listener's ear. To the player, there's an ease of performance no modern instrument can equal; the changes in the color of sound cannot be equaled."
Pictures of it : http://reuningprivatesales.com/stainlein

The knee-jerk pseudoscience (because the experimental design & evaluation were both incompetent) response to this is that Greenhouse's summary description of this instrument's voice (above) must be self-serving hyperbole of truly monumental proportions -- a shamelessly baldfaced example of "Tell the customer what he wants to hear." Which necessarily generalizes into insisting the transcendental superiority of Stradivari's 'cellos that has been common knowledge for the last 225 years is really clueless, collective delusion. None of the greatest 'cellists in history have had any idea what they were talking about, even after (like Greenhouse) 50 years of individual first hand experience with it. Going all the way back to players like Davidoff, Feuerman, Piatigorsky, Starker, Rostropovich, YoYo Ma and the rest of them have all been fools and clowns who were captives of a collective delusion.

Right ? That's what you're insisting. Which is the reason why I'm telling you as nicely as possible that you are full of shit up to your eyebrows.

That I would be in the audience to hear them was axiomatic any time the Beaux Arts Trio (Pressler-Greenhouse-Cohen incarnation) was playing within driving distance. After a while I ended up talking with them backstage after they'd played. Especially Greenhouse. It completely baffled me the way his 'cello filled Carnegie Recital Hall in Pgh. (a tough job) (experience talking) yet he was barely moving his bow back and forth, and with no visible downward pressure. He was violating the laws of physics based on conventional equipment.

More extreme yet : the bow he used was a flyweight baroque-transitional design one made by a guy he knew that would have been hopelessly too weak to draw anything but a weak and partial sound that would have disappeared at the edge of the stage from any normal 'cello -- the resistance of the top would have been too great for it to drive the string enough to overcome. Yet he'd been sitting there with his patented economical movements and deadpan expression, barely touching the strings with that slow-moving, underweight, spineless bow, and filling immensity with the most awesomely gorgeous 'cello sound you could ever hope to hear. And standing up to a concert grand piano and a Stradivari violin (1702 Brodsky) while doing so.

The Competent-through-Experience ones are regarded as idiots by the Ideologues and the Ideologues are regarded as idiots by the Experienced. On one hand, the agreement of first-hand, common knowledge. On the other, the supposition that since their conception of the world and what's in it does not admit of the transcendental in anything, "That cannot be because that cannot be."

The REAL science guys are fascinated by it :

An Interview with Keith Hill by Elatia Harris as it appeared originally in 2007 at the 3 Quarks Daily website
EH: What do you think happened between the time of the great makers -- Amati, Stradivari, Guarneri -- and the present time for their methods to be such a puzzle to modern makers?

KH: The modern frame of reference happened, and it takes some doing to know the world as a maker of the 17th century would have known it. This includes thinking about acoustics from a completely different point of view. There was a huge shift in the whole basis of scientific culture between the 17th and 18th centuries – towards observation, verifiablility and mathematical proof. Science began to be dominated by the eye. Before that, science was closer to what we think of as alchemy, with one favorite activity of a scientist being to draw correlations between everything in the universe. A musical instrument was a microcosm, governed by Pythagorean ratios and proportions, and before attempting to understand the makers’ way of doing things, it’s necessary to remember that the great violins got their start in the time just before Galileo.

EH: And that the last of the great makers had died before the Enlightenment got underway?

That’s right. The instruments we’re talking about came from the workshops of three makers in Cremona, between the final years of the 16th century and the first half of the 18th century. The first was Andrea Amati, who invented the violin as we know it, but the best of the Amati line was his grandson Nicolo, the teacher of both Antonio Stradivari and Andrea Guarneri. Stradivari was almost 40 by the time he went out on his own in 1680. He was active for a very long time, until the late 1730’s, and extremely productive -- he averaged about 25 violins a year, compared to 3 or 4 a year from a good maker today. Stradivari’s workshop, but not his genius, passed to his two sons. Giuseppe Guarneri “del Gesu” was the grandson of Andrea – the top of the line and rather short-lived. He died in his 40’s only a few years after Stradivari, in 1744. So these were family businesses, with the greatest instruments produced by Antonio Stradivari and Giuseppe Guarneri in the early 1700’s.

EH: And you have some ideas about that…

KH: I have made some discoveries about how the great makers may have considered acoustics so as to build sound the way they did. It takes into account a worldview that has been eclipsed, scientifically speaking, but is no less accurate now than then, when applied to the making of musical instruments. Modern science has been just about useless in that pursuit, if the idea is to make a great violin that can speak to us as the great violins of the past do. For that, we need to go straight to what the great makers knew.

EH: Something that’s kind of mystical?

KH: No, just something about the way they saw the world. For instance, I observed about 25 years ago that nature constructs living organisms and tunes the parts of their structure to pure musical ratios -- this is what the ancient makers must have known. Our bones, then, are tuned to pure musical ratios that are part of the harmonic series, and it is the complex of these harmonic ratios in the various bones that makes each of our voices unique. The ancient musical instrument makers then figured out how to "build" these musical ratios into all the parts of their instruments and the results were musical instruments that sound like human voices. This way of thinking is what was lost shortly after the death of Antonio Stradivari and Giuseppe Guarneri, as makers became fixated on mass production methods and lost touch with the other practices of their traditional acoustical infrastructure.

EH: This is where there have to be similarities between your work and that of Stradivari and Guarneri – in the acoustical infrastructure.

KH: My work is entirely based on acoustical principles, not on copying the appearances of violins that the great violinists have come to love, respect and covet. If my violins bear any similarity to the work of Giuseppe Guarneri, it is not because I copied one of his violins, it is because, in a manner of speaking, I copied his mind-set.
Read much more at
http://www.instrumentmaking.keithhillha ... gpage.html

And THAT is an example of the attitude you start with if you want to get someplace with it.

(IMO)

(YMMV)
Yak
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Re: The psychology of rarity

Post by Yak »

There is a lot about sound that people don't know or understand. Like the mourning dove that sits in a tree 100 yards from our porch and annoys me for hours with his intermidable oooOOOooo...ooo...ooo. The distance that sound carries & the intensity of it is out of all proportion. Even more so : Katydids. Try even finding where one is; let alone wondering how such a miniscule mechanism could produce such a focused, carrying sound.

Ditto the old Alchemist era violin family makers. The top of a Stradivari 'cello is the same thickness as the top of a modern violin. Duplicate its dimensions today and the top would camel (sag) and collapse over time from being unable to resist the downward pressure of the strings through the bridge.
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