High new pipe prices - what the heck's going on?

[GPipe]

Hey guys,

I've watched the price of handcarved pipes steadily going up lately which is why I thought I'd try my hand at making my own. When I started collecting/smoking pipes 8-years ago S. Bang were some of the highest priced pipes at $1000 and up. Lately new pipes from some artisand are easily advertised at $1500 to $3000. Just to name a few, Tonni Neilsen and Teddy Knudsen come to mind but there are others. About a year ago a certain on-line pipe store from the east coast was selling a Teddy Knudsen pipe for $12,000! I had to email customer service and make sure the price wasn't a typo and ask what was so special about the pipe.

So is it simply supply and demand? If so, is there more demand or less supply?
Are artisan pipe makers packing their pipes with something other than tobacco? (no offense intended)
Are the on-line suppliers jacking the price up too much?

[Sasquatch]

It's not really any different that anything else you could buy.

You want a Toyota or a Ferrari?

Certain makers have been selling at crazy prices, and I think there's a little of "collectorism" going on, where a guy feels like if he buys the pipe for 4000 now he can sell it for 5000 ten years from now. In some cases this will be true, but not all, I think.

The carvers you mention have been doing this for a long, long time, their work is recognized as both technically and artistically superior. So it costs more.

Is it "fair"? Nobody cares.

[The Smoking Yeti]

Yeah, what Sas said.

Think about it like this, supply+demand=price.

Somebody like Teddy Knudsen has begun to decrease supply, which jacks up demand, and since he has an amazing reputation and years of experience, he can sell the pipes for that much more, and why shouldn't he? If I could see pipes for $12000+ you bet I would!

You also see a lot of pipes at high prices which've been for sale for a long time, the market is telling them their prices are too high.

Let's be honest though, a lot of collectors view some artisan's work as art, which is perfectly fine by me, and as such, art costs more than a tool(Unless we're talking 5axis milling machines).

You'll find a lot of beautiful pipes are out there for under $500 though, just do some searching!

[Jos]

Yep, it's supply & demand.
Demand has gone up the last years, 10 years ago China bought plain nothing,
today chinese collectors and traders are sweeping the market.
In the last months, I sold some unsmoked Dunhills on Ebay ... some 75 % of these
went to China.
Guess with the freehands it's pretty much the same, especially with the high grades.

Jens

[wmolaw]

Of course, some priced that high are just worth it, right?

http://handmade-briar-usa.com/Pipes.htm

Sorry, couldn't help myself.

[Vermont Freehand]

Of course, some priced that high are just worth it, right?

http://handmade-briar-usa.com/Pipes.htm

Sorry, couldn't help myself.

hahaha, I love how this keeps popping up, always gives me a chuckle

In response to the topic, I have one word for you, China, they are paying ridiculous prices. Soon it will trickle down to more of the smaller carvers, or maybe they are just buying them to make reproductions.... they have been known to do that in every other trade.

[e Markle]

In response to the topic, I have one word for you, China, they are paying ridiculous prices. Soon it will trickle down to more of the smaller carvers, or maybe they are just buying them to make reproductions.... they have been known to do that in every other trade.

I think that's probably the single largest contributor as well. Don't forget how much smaller the world is with the internet though. Ease of payment, and visibility of pipes to new markets means more demand as well, but at the same time supply (for high-grade pipes) has not changed. In fact, with the loss of Bo, Barbi, the effective loss of Jess and slowing production of others, one could argue it has gone down.

[The Smoking Yeti]

In response to the topic, I have one word for you, China, they are paying ridiculous prices. Soon it will trickle down to more of the smaller carvers, or maybe they are just buying them to make reproductions.... they have been known to do that in every other trade.

I think that's probably the single largest contributor as well. Don't forget how much smaller the world is with the internet though. Ease of payment, and visibility of pipes to new markets means more demand as well, but at the same time supply (for high-grade pipes) has not changed. In fact, with the loss of Bo, Barbi, the effective loss of Jess and slowing production of others, one could argue it has gone down.

Which is all part of MM's master plan... I see where you're going with this!

[GPipe]

Ease of payment, and visibility of pipes to new markets means more demand as well, but at the same time supply (for high-grade pipes) has not changed. In fact, with the loss of Bo, Barbi, the effective loss of Jess and slowing production of others, one could argue it has gone down.

There are others who are filling the void but cannot take the place of the master's who have been lost. If it is true that China is an emerging pipe market, did anyone see this coming? I find this possibility very interesting, but, as a consumer, am slightly annoyed that the prices have been going up. hence, I'm attempting to make my own pipes.

[Sasquatch]

Doing business with the Chinese is something we are going to have to get used to. They are a huge untapped market for consumer goods, and certain retailers are beginning to realize this and act on it (BMW just opened a plant in China - for China. No export.)

What we are learning here in Alberta is that these guys are ruthless in business like nothing we've ever seen. There was a case where a Chinese company violated all sorts of workers-rights standards here, and got fined a huge sum of money by the government watchdog, and so they just.... went home. Next time they want to do business here, they pay the fine then, set up camp and do it all again. Poke around - mining in BC and oil in Alberta have had some pretty incredible stories.

They bought an aircraft carrier from the Russians, promising it was for fishing. Didn't even pretend to take it to the promised re-fitting port. Simply drove it to China and filled it with planes. It's awesome.

So there's lots of business to be had over there, but a guy has to protect himself. There are pipemakers approached at shows, a briefcase full of cash is offered - "We'll take all these pipes, and everything else you make this year." Trouble is, the offered pay is about 1/2 of what you'd ordinarily want.

[GPipe]

There are pipemakers approached at shows, a briefcase full of cash is offered - "We'll take all these pipes, and everything else you make this year." Trouble is, the offered pay is about 1/2 of what you'd ordinarily want.

Are there alternative motives to this or are they simply getting into the pipe market?

[Sasquatch]

The motive is profit, just like any other business venture. Whether a whole slew of fake pipes shows up or someone's design is copied.... I have no idea.

[andrew]

Ease of payment, and visibility of pipes to new markets means more demand as well, but at the same time supply (for high-grade pipes) has not changed. In fact, with the loss of Bo, Barbi, the effective loss of Jess and slowing production of others, one could argue it has gone down.

There are others who are filling the void but cannot take the place of the master's who have been lost. If it is true that China is an emerging pipe market, did anyone see this coming? I find this possibility very interesting, but, as a consumer, am slightly annoyed that the prices have been going up. hence, I'm attempting to make my own pipes.

Yes, a lot of carvers saw this coming. A lot of carvers are active in the Asian market, but I think most of them are the European carvers. The Asian market for pipes is not something new, its just new to lot of the western carvers. Take what I'm saying with a grain of salt, or possibly the whole shaker. I am going off of what I have read, not personal experience.

[Sasquatch]

Start manufacturing nuclear carrier groups Andrew - they'll beat a path to your door.

[e Markle]

Which is all part of MM's master plan... I see where you're going with this!

right?!

[Sasquatch]

The Chinese might be ruthless but they aren't stupid.

#planfail

[andrew]

Start manufacturing nuclear carrier groups Andrew - they'll beat a path to your door.

Next stop, nuclear carrier's. I think pipe making is a good platform for that.

[bregolad]

I'm learning that price and quality do not have a constant relationship as you slide along the price scale. Someone offering their pipes at $200 may be underselling themselves by quite a bit. That $200 pipe exhibits all the qualities of a $300 pipe. But as quality goes up, the price increases as well, and it doesn't keep the same ratio.

Ever wonder professional grade equipment is 2-3 times the price of consumer grade stuff? Jet 3/4 hp drill press $699, comparable harbor freight 3/4 hp drill press, $239. The Jet model is NOT 3 times better. It's 10%-20% better. But that difference is worth the price.

[e Markle]

There are others who are filling the void but cannot take the place of the master's who have been lost.

I think there are makers who are filling the pricing void, but I don't see m/any filling the experience void. It will take years for that to happen, and there's quite a gap in the roster between the sub 10 year makers and the 30+ year makers. Even the number of makers who've been doing this for a decade is sparse.

[Sasquatch]

There's a giant E shining in the sky....


rescue us ERNIEMAN!