Lathe advice needed

[5277a124]

There are many great posts about lathes and the debates thereof on this site. I've been making pipes for about 3 years with a drill press, band saw, 1" belt sander, dremel and sandpaper and finally came to the point where I want a lathe so I can actually make something truly round. Also, I would like to start making stems from rod stock instead of using pre-molded stems. I only have space for one workbench lathe and am inclined toward a metal lathe since it seems like that's the one that will do both stems and wood the best. I read good things about the Taig mini lathe, but it seems that some say it's too small for stummel work. Any recommendations about a quality lathe and the needed toolage would be greatly appreciated. Lastly, I live in Long Beach, CA, and I would be happy to pay a reasonable fee to anyone nearby that would be willing to school me on how to make a billiard on a lathe. All the best.

Cheers,

Jeff

[JHowell]

Budget? Taig is too small for anything but stems, and even for stems it's such a big advantage to have a hole through spindle big enough to accommodate your rod stock that I would make that a priority. So you're looking 9 or 10 inch as a minimum. That winds up also being the maximum for lots of guys because of the cost and space/weight requirements. Which way to go, import or old USA, has been discussed quite a bit. If the past discussions here don't give you some ideas, I'd recommend keeping an eye on Craigslist and ebay to see what's in your area. Sooner or later a lathe will come along that happens to be something you can use and something you're able to move, and it will seem like a good value. Could be a Logan, could be a Jet, could be an Emco, could be a Dalton. Good luck.

[KurtHuhn]

A Taig is way too small for stummel work. It's not just seemingly so, but the hard fact is that it can't handle briar blocks.

If you want a metal lathe, a 9" is minimum. Take Jack's advice and keep your eyes peeled for lathes in your area. Those "local pickup only" auctions can be a great way to get into a good lathe for minimum investment.

[Mike Messer]

A Taig is way too small for stummel work. It's not just seemingly so, but the hard fact is that it can't handle briar blocks.

If you want a metal lathe, a 9" is minimum. Take Jack's advice and keep your eyes peeled for lathes in your area. Those "local pickup only" auctions can be a great way to get into a good lathe for minimum investment.

I wouldn't say 9" is minimum, but it would be an ideal minimum. I've made some nice pipes and stems on a 7x12 mini lathe, but I wish I had started with a 9 x 16 or bigger, even. Jack's nailed it, "cost and space/weight requirements"

The 9" swing divided by 2 = 4.5 in., - .25 in.safety factor = 4.25 inches and for example in a somewhat right-angled pipe, is the longest distance from the pipe bowl center line to end of the shank which you can turn on the lathe. When you rotate the block to turn the bowl, the shank swings around.
You will also in the length of the lathe want some big chucks, drill chucks, drill bits, and 12 inch lathe is limiting, 16 would be much better.

I like variable speed a lot...a whole lot.

IMO, you should get a new metal lathe, if you can afford it. Personally, I don't want a metal lathe that has been stressed heavily turning metal or polluted with metal dust, oil, etc, and the older ones may need parts which you may have trouble finding and installing. The machine needs to run true.

Lately I've been looking at the ... http://www.siegind.com/ (Shanghai SIEG Machinery Co., Ltd )

http://www.littlemachineshop.com/ (Pasadena, CA)
HiTorque 8.5 x 16 Bench Lathe, $1350 (it's actually a Black & Red SIEG SC4, 8.27 x 16.14)
Shipping is a bit high and vague because the 275 lb shipping weight is too much for UPS.

They also have the HiTorque 7x12 for $699 + about $75 shipping? ( (it's actually a Black & Red SIEG SC2) You can also get a similar Seig 7x12 from grizzly.com for $525 + $75 shipping

If you can afford it the Black & Red SIEG SC6 9.84" x 21.65" 319lb wt./396lb ship wt.
£1,109.50 $1888 plus shipping, from http://www.axminster.co.uk/
looks very good, but no one I know in the USA sells it.

[5277a124]

Gentlemen, thanks for your thoughts. Cost is not a huge issue since this is a good month for me. Would the Jet BD-920W be good for stems and stummels? If I'm going to buy a lathe, I want something that's going to get the job done, and not something that I will have to upgrade a year later. I have bits for tobacco chamber/airhole/mortise and the PIMO tenon cutter. However, if I buy the Jet above, I would appreciate it if the pros would list the other toolage that I will need. I read on another post how one guy wished he had bough the Jet because it was more "ready to go" and didn't require as many extra tools that another lathe (Rikon?) did.

Thanks again,

Jeff

[baweaverpipes]

Jeff,
Like many, I started out with a drill press and graduated from there.
I purchased a Grizzly 2x19. That is now being used solely for cutting Delrin tenons and other odd jobs. My workhorse is a PM1236. If you have the money, a 12x36 is the way to go, IMHO.
Search the old postings regarding this subject. Todd Johnson has written about this quite a few times.

[JHowell]

Cost isn't an issue? I *never*hear that! Awesome! When I hear "cost isn't an issue" I have visions of Hardinge HLVHs or Rivetts or Monarchs or, at the very least, a Standard Modern. But the fact is that for pipes you don't need a super precision toolroom lathe; you need a sturdy production machine with a hardened bed. You're going to do the very worst thing to this lathe that anybody can do to a lathe, which is use abrasives. When you sand something on the lathe, the abrasive dust gets trapped in the oil on the ways, the saddle slides over it and picks it up, it gets embedded in the saddle and wears out the bed. You can slow the process down by protecting the ways and using good dust collection and keeping everything as clean as possible, but it's going to happen eventually. It makes sense to spend some money (especially if you have it) to move up from the home shop machinist class of machine, but not to spend a lot of money on holding .0005" over a couple of feet. We pipemakers need to hold a thousandth or two over an inch, and I've never seen a lathe that was too worn out to do that.

The Precision Matthews 1236 is a good option -- it's one I was considering before I found my Jet 13-inch, especially since he's here in Pittsburgh. My best advice if you're flush is to get something with a big spindle that will take 5C collets, and get a lever collet closer. Collets are addictive, and a lever closer is much cheaper and easier to get up front than to add later. Requires some precision machining to match everything up. Collets are very precise and fast, and it's a lot easier to work on small bits in them. Sure, you learn with a chuck how to do things so you don't get your knuckles whacked, but once you get used to collets you won't go back.

[5277a124]

So I'm assuming the PM1236 is USA-made? I can afford the PM1236, but I don't have the space since I need a benchtop lathe for my shed. I saw this http://www.machinetoolonline.com/PM1030.html link and that will work with my space/benchtop consideration. I'm assuming it's sufficient for pipe-making? Also, this company can make the "Lever Collet Closer" that was mentioned?

Thanks,

Jeff

[JHowell]

So I'm assuming the PM1236 is USA-made? I can afford the PM1236, but I don't have the space since I need a benchtop lathe for my shed. I saw this http://www.machinetoolonline.com/PM1030.html link and that will work with my space/benchtop consideration. I'm assuming it's sufficient for pipe-making? Also, this company can make the "Lever Collet Closer" that was mentioned?

Thanks,

Jeff

No, the Matthews machines are imports, mostly Chinese. There are no more US made lathes, I'm sorry to say. I don't think the 10 inch has a spindle that will take a 5C collet, so the lever closer doesn't apply. The collet closer is offered as an option on machines like the 1236. Sure, the 10 incher is sufficient, we just got excited when you said cost wasn't an issue.

Me, I'd put in the bigger lathe and improvise for the bench.

[RadDavis]

we just got excited when you said cost wasn't an issue

You should read that as Jack got excited. He's a member of L.A (latheaholics anonymous).

Bless his heart, he can't help himself. It's a disease, you know.

Rad

[JHowell]

we just got excited when you said cost wasn't an issue

You should read that as Jack got excited. He's a member of L.A (latheaholics anonymous).

Bless his heart, he can't help himself. It's a disease, you know.

Rad

Disease? That stings, I'm running a no-kill lathe shelter.

Not to worry, even starting with a 10-inch Chinese lathe I can spend every dime you've got. Let's start by slapping one one of these babies on it.

http://www.ecolletchucks.com/BISON/BISO ... -CHUCK.htm

When that's done we'll start with the digital readout.

Better yet, just start pouring the slab for your shed extension.

[smokindawg]

I'm a cheap bastage, so I'd say, still wait and watch your local Craigslist. You'll get a lot more lathe for a lot less $$$. Plus sometimes you'll get more attachments with them.

Not that all attachments are good for pipe making, but you'll always come up with something else to make on your new-to-you lathe. I know that I have.

I picked up my 9x20 Jet with 5/8" jaccobs chuck, 3 jaw self centering chuck, two different 4 jaw independent, Center and follow rest, lots of cutting tools, original tool post and QCTP as well as the factory base for a total of $600. I've added a bit of tooling but still have a good lathe for cheap compared to new and it does just as good a job as a new lathe.

[KurtHuhn]

Disease? That stings, I'm running a no-kill lathe shelter.

Sometimes, if you're lucky, Jack even lets you adopt one of his rescues.

[5277a124]

Sad to hear that all the new lathes are Chinese, because I do try to support the local boys when I can. I'm assuming that the Precision Matthews was recommended because it's a tad better than the Jet or the Grizzly? That said, I appreciate the advice on holding out for some good used gear. My budget is not completely unlimited, but I know I will spend a lot more on the lathe after all the chisels and other tools are added so that's worthy of patience. Since I've never used a lathe, I'm a little more inclined to buy new just so I don't get taken! Frankly, other than watching it wobble or hearing a bad sound, I would not know what to look for.

[JHowell]

Sad to hear that all the new lathes are Chinese, because I do try to support the local boys when I can. I'm assuming that the Precision Matthews was recommended because it's a tad better than the Jet or the Grizzly? That said, I appreciate the advice on holding out for some good used gear. My budget is not completely unlimited, but I know I will spend a lot more on the lathe after all the chisels and other tools are added so that's worthy of patience. Since I've never used a lathe, I'm a little more inclined to buy new just so I don't get taken! Frankly, other than watching it wobble or hearing a bad sound, I would not know what to look for.

Interesting you should mention Grizzly:

http://www.grizzly.com/products/South-B ... the/SB1002

They've revived the South Bend name, though the machines are imported. Sort of an upscale import -- some of them are made in Taiwanese factories that have a history of making good machine tools. If you look at a Jet, a Grizzly, a Birmingham, an Enco, and a PM, say 9X20, you'll notice a certain similarity in design and specification. Most of them are made in the same factory or same couple of Chinese factories. Some differ slightly according to the importer's contract, some are essentially the same except for paint color and will even interchange parts. Any machine forum you visit, you'll find guys who have good and bad experience with the same brand. Matt at PM seems to be working very hard to please his customers. Grizzly has some nice machines and if there's a store within driving distance is certainly worth a look.

I'd recommend finding a copy (I think there are some online PDFs) of the South Bend publication "How To Run a Lathe." It covers the basics, which are pretty much the same from lathe to lathe. It sounds like you might want to look around locally and see if there's a machine dealer you could work with on a Jet. Even with a new machine, there can be a problem, and having someone local who is willing to own the problem could be worth a few bucks more.

Or, see if you know someone who knows a machinist, the older and crabbier the better. I took some machining courses in college, but have learned way more from a couple of machinists I know. If you find a retired master machinist who is willing to show you around his shop and explain how to use a lathe without losing a finger or imbedding something in your forehead, you might also have found someone who knows somebody who knows somebody who has a lathe . . .

[5277a124]

It's good to know that there may not be much difference in manufacturing between the different brands. I scratched my head after reading your advice, because I have a buddy who owns a machine shop and can't believe I didn't think to ask him and his older crabby father! I'll honor the "buy the manual" advice to avoid killing myself and the local dealer idea sounds smart as well. I've been playing phone tag with PM, but am still trying to find out if their 10x30 or 11x27 will work with the 5C collets based on their spindle size. Also, to build on previous comments... Since the spindle size of the lathes I'm looking probably won't take 5C collets ( I read somewhere that 1.38" is minimum requirement for 5C), is there just another class of collets that I can use for lathes with smaller spindle bores. Indeed, I am a novice!

[KurtHuhn]

ER series collets are useful, especially if you're running a 9" lathe. My 9" only has a 3/4" spindle bore, and ER-32 collets only go up to 20mm (21mm if I get creative), so everything works out well. If I had a 11 or 12", I'd be looking to get a 5C chuck and collet set.

[Mike Messer]

Check out the Black and Red (series) Metal Lathes... http://www.siegind.com/ (Shanghai SIEG Machinery Co., Ltd )

[JHowell]

It's good to know that there may not be much difference in manufacturing between the different brands. I scratched my head after reading your advice, because I have a buddy who owns a machine shop and can't believe I didn't think to ask him and his older crabby father! I'll honor the "buy the manual" advice to avoid killing myself and the local dealer idea sounds smart as well. I've been playing phone tag with PM, but am still trying to find out if their 10x30 or 11x27 will work with the 5C collets based on their spindle size. Also, to build on previous comments... Since the spindle size of the lathes I'm looking probably won't take 5C collets ( I read somewhere that 1.38" is minimum requirement for 5C), is there just another class of collets that I can use for lathes with smaller spindle bores. Indeed, I am a novice!

Well, there is some difference in manufacturing. It's often said that the Chinese factories can build stuff as good as you want if you're willing to pay for it. Different brands contract to different specifications and prices, but lathes are apt to be fairly similar at similar price points. There's not that much to choose between a PM, a Grizzly, a Jet, and a Birmingham lathe in a given category. I'd avoid the lower-cost brands. There will be more difference between a 9X20 and a 12X36 lathe in any brand than there is between one 9X20 and another, and more difference yet going to a 14X40. The home shop market drives 9X20s, and because they are typically lightly used and forced to compete on price, they suffer in comparison with larger machines that are typically bought by shops of one kind or another.

Looking at the PM site, the 12X36 will take 5C collets. The smaller lathes won't. You're looking for a MT5 spindle taper. It's okay, it's not that big a deal. You'll be just fine with a good 3-jaw chuck. Collets are great and something to consider if you're looking for the ultimate lathe, but if your primary need is for compact size just go for that. Your minimum spindle will be 2 1/4" - 8tpi screw mount or D1-4 camlock.

By all means, utilize your machinist friend.

[5277a124]

So, I should look for a spindle taper that is MT5? After talking to PM about their 10x30, I believe the taper is MT3. Here's a couple more novice questions.

1) Will the three jaw chuck work for holding vulcanite rod stock? Or, is a collet required?
2) PM said the machine I'm looking at doesn't have a large enough spindle size to take the 5C collets, but he said I can add an adapter to the lathe that will accept 5C collets. Is this an acceptable workaround for stem-making?
3) J Howell, when you spoke of he 2 1/4" minimum spindle, 8 tpi screw mount and D1-4 camlock, are those specifications that I need my lathe to have for these purposes?

Thanks again,

Jeff