Question About Ebonite Smell

For discussion of fitting and shaping stems, doing inlays, and any other stem-related topic.
Kettletrigger
Posts: 34
Joined: Sun Jun 28, 2009 1:42 am
Location: Dana Point, CA

Re: Question About Ebonite Smell

Post by Kettletrigger »

Sasquatch wrote:The freedom to explore is one thing, and we all do it.

Taking a clock apart to locate the "tick" is another. Or, if you prefer a stronger metaphor, going into someone's house and taking a crap in his living room and then telling him that's where the toilet ought to have been, is another.
Are newbies to this forum metaphorical guests in your home? If so, a simple disclaimer at the top of the main page informing newbies that their opinions have less value than yours would save us all a lot of time.

I've taken quite a few things apart in my day to find the "tick". Sometimes I wasn't able to figure it out, sometimes I was. I usually learned something in the process. What gives you the right to tell someone that they can't indulge themselves in such a way?

That sulfurous ebonite smell is slowly being replaced by the smell of fascism.
"The free, exploring mind of the individual human
is the most valuable thing in the world."
-John Steinbeck
User avatar
Sasquatch
Posts: 5147
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 1:46 am

Re: Question About Ebonite Smell

Post by Sasquatch »

Kettle, I do still consider myself a newbie here, if that means anything to you. :D

The thread started with a few questions about ebonite and how it smells especially compared to vulcanite. Those were answered, even with disclaimers about methodology being very individualistic and that whatever works for you works for you.

It degenerated into a discussion of whether or not stinking is something that ebonite does. The answer is yes. Mike put his "answer" in too, claiming that he knew non-stinky ebonite existed. His refusal to accept the "opinion" of probably 50 years of combined pipe making experience does not make Todd, Rad, or anyone else here "Fascist". Bullshit is bullshit.

Mike can do as he pleases. He can even go so far as to make a pipe or two. :roll: I can guarantee as a new pipe maker, I know the kinds of thoughts he's thinking. I was thinking them a VERY short time ago. Mike is a guy who can't stand to be wrong, or even to be called a "hobbyist". Sheesh I sell pipes every week and I consider myself a hobbyist. So be it.

But many of the claims made by Mike in this thread are demonstrably not factual in the world of pipes. His suggestion that non-stinky ebonite exists is goofy. His suggestion that vulcanite pre-forms are just as good if not better than ebonite is goofy. His suggestion that a polished up pre-form is unrecognizeable as compared to a hand-cut stem is goofy.

I've asked some dumb stuff here. Shown some ugly shit. And never once did I feel come-down-on. All I ever felt was supported for TRYING TO MAKE PIPES. And if Mike ever shows us a pipe, he'll get that support too. In the meantime, he's just a guy who walked in, implicitly suggested we were all full of shit or possibly too stupid to know bad from good in pipe making, and given out all sorts of technical "facts" which ostensibly have some pipe-making relevance, but actually are completely useless because each and every significant participant on this thread is an accomplished pipe maker and pipe seller.

Until the Newb (any newb, this is not aimed at Mike, or you Kettle, or anyone in particular) gets it into his head that his thick, fat, mis-shapen pipes with Guidici stems (recognizable by number at 20 feet) are NOT GOING TO SELL because they look like newbie pipes with cheapo stems, he ain't gettin anywhere but the "hobbyist" level referred to.

I've posted some pretty ugly shit here in the Gallery. Each and every time my best current work. And never once did anyone put me down, or tell me that I needed to follow certain rules. I got honest advice which I hated and bridled at, at the time, but which I now see as being dead-on and very valuable, and accelerated my progress by exactly 114.6 %. And now my pipes sell. It's a funny old world.
ALL YOUR PIPE ARE BELONG TO US!
User avatar
Mike Messer
Posts: 546
Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2009 11:01 pm
Location: USA
Contact:

Re: Question About Ebonite Smell

Post by Mike Messer »

Sasquatch wrote: But many of the claims made by Mike in this thread are demonstrably not factual in the world of pipes. His suggestion that non-stinky ebonite exists is goofy. His suggestion that vulcanite pre-forms are just as good if not better than ebonite is goofy. His suggestion that a polished up pre-form is unrecognizeable as compared to a hand-cut stem is goofy.
I never said that ebonite, vulcanite, vulcanized rubber (all different terms for the same thing) doesn't smell bad. That was what started up some of the controversy. Get it right, dude, and please, don't misquote me. I said the rod from PME smelled like sewer gas when you worked it, and it did, and it was unusual. This has been proved to be factual.
I think we need to cool-out a bit. This heated argument stuff is counter-productive. It disconnects us from reality.
Last edited by Mike Messer on Sat Sep 12, 2009 10:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Sasquatch
Posts: 5147
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 1:46 am

Re:

Post by Sasquatch »

Mike Messer wrote:I know it is posible to make Ebonite that does not smell awful....
Er, sorry?

I've had too many "helpers" exactly like you Mike, and I have a speech prepared for them now, offered in the hopes that they can get through a week or so of construction without getting hurt.

Show us your pipes, take your lumps, do it again, get better, and then bring your "knowledge" to the table. Or don't.
Last edited by Sasquatch on Sat Sep 12, 2009 10:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
ALL YOUR PIPE ARE BELONG TO US!
User avatar
Mike Messer
Posts: 546
Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2009 11:01 pm
Location: USA
Contact:

Re: Re:

Post by Mike Messer »

Sasquatch wrote:
Mike Messer wrote:I know it is posible to make Ebonite that does not smell awful....
the rest of the sentence, "...I know it is posible to make Ebonite that does not smell awful for weeks after it is cut.."
Last edited by Mike Messer on Sat Sep 12, 2009 10:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Sasquatch
Posts: 5147
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 1:46 am

Re: Question About Ebonite Smell

Post by Sasquatch »

I had the same rod at the same time, Mike. It DID stink when I cut it. For sure. But when I waxed it up, it didn't anymore. Sold the pipe. No complaints of sewer taste from the new owner. Here is what he said

"I just got this yesterday from Todd B (Sasquatch). He made this pipe when I requested a full bent without gurgle and with smooth draw, which is a challenge. Well, he came through, to say the least. The pipe draws smooth, burns down to an ash the first time around with PA/CH, and - mirabile dictu - no gurgling at all! In fact no moisture. I haven't seen briar quality like this in years (as I haven't been able to afford it in years). The stem is ebonite, which I never tried before, and it's the most comfortable stem material to smoke - sturdy yet smooth and easy on the mouth. This will soon take it's place among my few top candidates for that fabled desert island pipe."

So yeah, there's a communication breakdown.

The ebonite is fine. It stinks when you work it. It stops when you seal it. Kurt already said that. So did Rad. So did Todd J. End of story.
ALL YOUR PIPE ARE BELONG TO US!
User avatar
baweaverpipes
The Awesomer
Posts: 947
Joined: Tue Dec 19, 2006 8:07 am
Location: Franklin, Tennessee
Contact:

Re: Question About Ebonite Smell

Post by baweaverpipes »

Mike,
I'll try to be as candid and diplomatic as possible.
In reality, all anyone has tried to do is help. That is what this board is all about, helping other aspiring pipe makers in their progress. It's very simple. There are some genuinely fine pipe craftsmen here and their talent is enormous, as well as their willingness to help.
I have been very fortunate to seek advise from many and take what they say to heart, due to their own experiences. Currently I am an apprentice under the guide of Todd Johnson. When he tells me a pipe looks like shit, I take him at his word and pay heed. He's right every time. I DON'T argue with him, nor have I argued with anyone willing to help.
At my first pipe show I was blessed to have be able to sit right next to Rad Davis. What a fine man. He was so willing to share. It was such a pleasure to find a hobby where the willingness of gifted artists gave so much to help other pipe maker's along.
I have asked so many for help: Jeff Gracik, Rad Davis, Tom Eltang, Lee von Erck, Brad Pohlmann, Tonni Nielsen, Todd and many other fine artists. I ask for honest opinions and listen. I DON'T argue with them. They WANT TO HELP.
Mike, listen and learn. Don't be aggressive with those willing to spend time helping. You're not going to learn by being passive aggressive. It seems as if you just want to argue, when help is being offered. Give it up and listen, these men are successful and have been doing this for a living for quite some time.
User avatar
Mike Messer
Posts: 546
Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2009 11:01 pm
Location: USA
Contact:

Re: Question About Ebonite Smell

Post by Mike Messer »

Sasquatch wrote: ...So yeah, there's a communication breakdown.

The ebonite is fine. It stinks when you work it. It stops when you seal it. Kurt already said that. So did Rad. So did Todd J. End of story.
Not fine, not the end of the story. Try some SEM rod. No cover-up required, and how long is your cover-up good for? I think it is you, and not me who "can't stand to be wrong." I do have a problem, though, when someone says I am wrong, when I am right.
Give me a little space here. I am trying to help, and I'm not saying I know everything there is to know about pipemaking, but I AM RIGHT about this smelly rod thing, and your trying to tear me down doesn't change this. (I edited an unfriendly, okay, obnoxious remark here)
M.M.
9-14-09 edit:
For the sake of accuracy, since I was leaning heavily, and not thinking a lot when I posted the above.
From my testing of the Stinky Rod, after 4 weeks, no smell from either the waxed area or the rough unwaxed area. But I could detect a faint but foul odor from both areas after 2 weeks.
So, somewhere between 2 and 4 weeks it's okay, but to me, it's awful to work with.
And this applies only to this one specific type of, and posibly batch of rod, which was probably manufactured by NYH. They make custom formulations for many purposes, and from the info on their web site, they don't mention pipemaking materials, so I don't think they are too concerned about pipemaking like maybe SEM would be.
M.M.
Last edited by Mike Messer on Mon Sep 14, 2009 1:10 am, edited 6 times in total.
Kettletrigger
Posts: 34
Joined: Sun Jun 28, 2009 1:42 am
Location: Dana Point, CA

Re: Question About Ebonite Smell

Post by Kettletrigger »

Sasquatch, here's the message I've been inferring from most members on this forum:

"Welcome new pipe makers! We'll share our experience, answer your questions, and joke around a bit too. If you ask our opinion of your pipes, we'll be honest and specific with our criticism and urge you to perfect your craft within the traditional boundaries of pipemaking. We'll even make an honest attempt to tolerate weird and aesthetically challenging designs if presented in an earnest manner."

That part is great, and holds true with the vast majority of the posts I've read. This thread, and a few others however, seem to have a darker postscript attached:

"Do not, under any circumstances, question or disagree with the advice of a certain few of the more experienced members here. Their years of experience have endowed them with a near-magical infallibility that must be unconditionally accepted. The slightest hint of dissent, regardless of how carefully couched, will be met with derision, contempt and a crushing onslaught of snarkiness that will make you want to take up basket weaving."

This is a great forum, but shit-howdy, I sure feel the pressure to tread lightly around certain members and their enormous, delicate egos.
"The free, exploring mind of the individual human
is the most valuable thing in the world."
-John Steinbeck
User avatar
Mike Messer
Posts: 546
Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2009 11:01 pm
Location: USA
Contact:

Re: Question About Ebonite Smell

Post by Mike Messer »

Kettletrigger wrote:....quote above...
This is a great forum, but shit-howdy, I sure feel the pressure to tread lightly around certain members and their enormous, delicate egos.
I truly appreciate your input, here, some really sharp and eloquent perspective. But, you know, a lot of creative people are egotistical, and even a little nutty. I think, we're just going to have to live with them, since we can't kill them. If I think I'm right, I'm going to defend it, but with some posible time limitations, until I'm proved wrong. So far that has not happened about the smelly ebonite, and it won't happen, because I am right about it. . The molded tip issue, however, is marginal. Oddly, even when I disagree about it, I don't entirely disagree.
Thanks a lot.
M.M.
User avatar
Sasquatch
Posts: 5147
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 1:46 am

Re: Question About Ebonite Smell

Post by Sasquatch »

Kettle, the first time I read some of the posts of the "big boys" here, I thought "Wow, who the hell does that asshole think he is?" when it came to some fairly subjective criticisms (not even of my work, per se). A bit more thought, and a bit of perspective, and a bunch of kind of crappy looking pipes later, I realized that the criticisms were perfectly valid, and "correct".

This is not to say that there is only one way to make a pipe, or anything like that at all. But just like Bruce said a couple of posts ago, when you DO follow the advice of the masters, all of a sudden the pipe "looks right" and hey, bingo, the thing sells. Does that make it "right"? Well... yeah. :lol:

You don't have to tread light here. If you have a question, ask. You'll get answers, and sometimes everyone will agree, and sometimes there's a bit of variation, and that's when it gets interesting. But I challenge you to find me a post here where a newbie has asked a serious question and gotten abused, without dishing something out first.


Mike, the guys who have been making pipes for a long, long time here, make them with great confidence from stinky ebonite. I lurk, and participate, in a LOT of pipe talk, and have friends all over the globe related to the industry. And not ONCE have I heard of a pipe that "got yucky after awhile" with the SOLE EXCEPTION being vulcanite which oxydizes rather quickly and tastes of.... sulphur.

So while I do see that you are trying to get the best ebonite you can, and raising concerns which we can all appreciate, the problem you are anticipating does not exist. A number of very polite master craftsmen of many years tried in numerous ways to show you this politely, and Todd J tried a little, uh, less politely. Maybe he's a zen master, and maybe he's an asshole. It doesn't matter, cuz as a crafstman, he's miles ahead of most of us.

There's 50 years of lineage to the techniques and materials being used by these guys. Direct, one on one, master to apprentice knowledge transfer. While there IS room for new ideas, there is fairly limited tolerance of a) re -inventing the wheel and b) correcting problems that don't exist.

I'm not here to offend anyone, nor to kiss anyone's butt. Fact is, I don't think even one person on this forum cares a rat's ass what I think of them or their pipes. I have learned more here than I thought possible, but I had to accept some things that came hard to me. First, I didn't know my ass from a hole in the ground when it came to things like "balance" or various principles of design and aesthetics. Thought I did, but I just didn't and my early pipes showed it. Hell, I still post half my stuff here, half finished, and ask for help with the details I can't clearly visualize. But I had to swallow some pride to be able to do it.

I hope you post some pix of pipes soon, Mike. You'll still get an honest appraisal, because around here, it's only the pipes that matter. There's no "record", no ledger, no statement of accounts. It's all pipes, and if you want to make awesome ones sooner, post your latest work. Part of the perceived lack of respect you are seeing is I think based on the fact that as far as we know, you've never made even one pipe. Maybe you've made hundreds, I dunno. But if you show up here with a pipe that is fantastic, and drilled to the .00001th of an inch, you'll get wowed at. If on the other hand, all you do is speculate about things that might be, and never actually make pipes, well, no one is too interested, I guess.

:)
ALL YOUR PIPE ARE BELONG TO US!
User avatar
ToddJohnson
Posts: 1366
Joined: Thu Nov 23, 2006 8:00 pm
Location: Nashville, TN
Contact:

Re: Question About Ebonite Smell

Post by ToddJohnson »

Mike Messer wrote:(Quote the above post)

I'm not a hobbiest...more to follow...
If I do anything, I am dead serious about it. I don't play.
Sometimes I'm looking for information, or advivce, sometimes I'm looking for an open discussion, and sometimes I'm giving advice.
Understand, I may be new to pipemaking, but I am not new to this world. I'm 61 years old, and I first cut out a piece of wood on a bandsaw when I was 8 years old. Since then I have worked with many materials and crafts, so don't talk down to me like I'm an ignorant little kid, Okay?
Does that make you an ignorant old man then? Look Mike, age has nothing to do with anything here. The fact that you cut out a piece of wood on a bandsaw 53 years ago doesn't mean you know anything about making pipes. If you actually were "dead serious" and not a "hobb[y]ist" and didn't "play," then you would have the sense to listen and learn rather than show us all how knowledgeable and experienced you are. You may, out of dumb luck, stumble upon something that could be helpful to everyone, and if that happened, I would welcome it, and happily learn from you. So far though, you've done nothing but demonstrate your own ignorance and stubbornness. You're unlikely to succeed like that, but maybe you and Giudici can do it together. What do I know after all? Good luck.

TJ

P.S. I'm still not convinced you aren't "Random."
User avatar
ToddJohnson
Posts: 1366
Joined: Thu Nov 23, 2006 8:00 pm
Location: Nashville, TN
Contact:

Re: Question About Ebonite Smell

Post by ToddJohnson »

Kettletrigger wrote:
Sasquatch wrote:That sulfurous ebonite smell is slowly being replaced by the smell of fascism.
DING! DING! DING! DING! Ladies and gentlemen, we have a winner! First one to enlist Fascism, Hitler, or the Nazis in any argument automatically loses . . . so I guess you're not a winner after all. Sorry, but you do get a full meter of smelly vulcanite as a consolation prize.
User avatar
ToddJohnson
Posts: 1366
Joined: Thu Nov 23, 2006 8:00 pm
Location: Nashville, TN
Contact:

Re: Question About Ebonite Smell

Post by ToddJohnson »

Mike Messer wrote:
Sasquatch wrote: ...So yeah, there's a communication breakdown.

The ebonite is fine. It stinks when you work it. It stops when you seal it. Kurt already said that. So did Rad. So did Todd J. End of story.
Not fine, not the end of the story. Try some SEM rod. No cover-up required, and how long is your cover-up good for? I think it is you, and not me who "can't stand to be wrong." I do have a problem, though, when someone says I am wrong, when I am right.
Give me a little space here. I am trying to help, and I'm not saying I know everything there is to know about pipemaking, but I AM RIGHT about this smelly rod thing, and your trying to tear me down doesn't change this. And you can stick your little "Newb" label anywhere you please.
M.M.
Uuuuh . . . "cover up" . . . ? What in the hell are you talking about? I have rod from SEM and it wreaks horribly when you work it. My little boys come in from outside and say "Dad, it's stinky in your shop. Are you cutting stems?" They're 4 and 2, and yet they seem to have learned that "sewer gas" smell is part of making hand-cut stems. Why can't you?

TJ
User avatar
Frank
Posts: 1341
Joined: Thu Nov 23, 2006 8:00 pm
Location: Southern California

Re: Question About Ebonite Smell

Post by Frank »

Sasquatch wrote:..., going into someone's house and taking a crap in his living room and then telling him that's where the toilet ought to have been, is another.
Try telling that to one of my cats. He persistently takes a dump 2 feet from the litter box, even when it has fresh, clean litter, the little bastich! :twisted:
Regards,
Frank.
------------------
Grouch Happens!
People usually get the gods they deserve - Terry Pratchett
Kettletrigger
Posts: 34
Joined: Sun Jun 28, 2009 1:42 am
Location: Dana Point, CA

Re: Question About Ebonite Smell

Post by Kettletrigger »

ToddJohnson wrote:
Kettletrigger wrote:
Sasquatch wrote:That sulfurous ebonite smell is slowly being replaced by the smell of fascism.
DING! DING! DING! DING! Ladies and gentlemen, we have a winner! First one to enlist Fascism, Hitler, or the Nazis in any argument automatically loses . . . so I guess you're not a winner after all. Sorry, but you do get a full meter of smelly vulcanite as a consolation prize.
I'm quoting directly from my ©1965 copy of According to Hoyle–Arguments, Debates and General Ballyhoo:

"While the use of Fascism, Hitler or the Nazi Party in an argument is cause for immediate disqualification, there are exceptions to this rule. Namely, Caveat 3.45.A, which states that 'Any naming of one of the three entities listed above shall not be cause for disqualification if it is used as an anecdotal descriptor to the argument, and not part of the argument itself. Section 36.DD states that 'The rule regarding disqualification shall be rendered null and void after a period of 40 years from date of publication, at which point the According to Hoyle Panel of Docents and Judges will vote upon its renewal.'"

So Todd, unless you can come up with a ©2005 or newer copy of According to Hoyle–Arguments, Debates and General Ballyhoo that shows that those words have been voted back in, I didn't lose.

Which apparently means that I win.

A groveling heartfelt apology is all the prize I need, thank you very much. Failing that, I'll accept the following poem tattooed across both yours and Rad's ass cheeks. You'll have to stand ass-by-ass for it to read properly, but that'll give you both a chance to spend more time together.

Carefully I trod upon
fragile egos, gilded fair
Verily they slithered
underneath my mighty pair
At first the merest whiff I think
but then a sulfurous wave, what stink!
Shall I turn my eye or shine a light
I think I'll stand and face the fright
"The free, exploring mind of the individual human
is the most valuable thing in the world."
-John Steinbeck
User avatar
bikedoctor
Site Supporter
Posts: 123
Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2008 7:46 pm
Location: Shreveport, LA

Re: Question About Ebonite Smell

Post by bikedoctor »

Kettletrigger wrote:So Todd, unless you can come up with a ©2005 or newer copy of According to Hoyle–Arguments, Debates and General Ballyhoo that shows that those words have been voted back in, I didn't lose.

Which apparently means that I win.

A groveling heartfelt apology is all the prize I need, thank you very much. Failing that, I'll accept the following poem tattooed across both yours and Rad's ass cheeks. You'll have to stand ass-by-ass for it to read properly, but that'll give you both a chance to spend more time together.

Carefully I trod upon
fragile egos, gilded fair
Verily they slithered
underneath my mighty pair
At first the merest whiff I think
but then a sulfurous wave, what stink!
Shall I turn my eye or shine a light
I think I'll stand and face the fright
:lol:
This is why I love pipe smoking. In cigar forums, guys disagree and all you get is a few "F-you's" and the thread is dead.
Kevin
User avatar
JHowell
Posts: 764
Joined: Thu Nov 23, 2006 8:00 pm
Contact:

Re: Question About Ebonite Smell

Post by JHowell »

ToddJohnson wrote:[SNIP

TJ

P.S. I'm still not convinced you aren't "Random."
Heh, heh, remember the one where Random said he didn't worry too much about centering the draft hole because he did most of the tobacco chamber shaping with a Dremel? And the Darius v. Random 12-rounders? Ahh, those were the days.

This has been vastly entertaining, but didn't Kurt settle this some time ago? The offending sample turned out to be merely typical. I'd be happy to provide disposal service for anyone who has any of that toxic Hamburg rod polluting his shop.

As the old saw goes:

"A man convinced against his will
Is of the same opinion still."

Jack
User avatar
Sasquatch
Posts: 5147
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 1:46 am

Re: Question About Ebonite Smell

Post by Sasquatch »

Fuck you Bikedoctor. Quick Kurt, close the thread! :P
ALL YOUR PIPE ARE BELONG TO US!
User avatar
KurtHuhn
Site Admin
Posts: 5326
Joined: Thu Nov 23, 2006 8:00 pm
Location: United States/Rhode Island

Re: Question About Ebonite Smell

Post by KurtHuhn »

ToddJohnson wrote:
Kettletrigger wrote:That sulfurous ebonite smell is slowly being replaced by the smell of fascism.
DING! DING! DING! DING! Ladies and gentlemen, we have a winner! First one to enlist Fascism, Hitler, or the Nazis in any argument automatically loses . . . so I guess you're not a winner after all. Sorry, but you do get a full meter of smelly vulcanite as a consolation prize.
ROFL!

Godwin's Law - for the win!
Kurt Huhn
AKA: Oversized Ostrogoth
artisan@k-huhn.com
Locked