Decent Metal Lathe

Danskpibemager · Post by **Danskpibemager** » Mon Apr 20, 2009 12:00 pm

Hi Guys,
Since my humble beginnings as a pipemaker I've used a Midi wood lathe to do all of my stem work, briar turning, adornments, etc and would like to move up to a decent metal lathe at some point in the near future. I guess you can tell what my question will be. What to get. I've done alot of research and read countless forums and I am as undecided as when I began. I know that most of todays lathes are products of China and come in varying degrees of quality and I know enough to stay away from the likes of Harbor Freight, etc. I also am willing to spend a little more to avoid having to refit or refurbish an old Logan or Atlas. I was looking at a Birmingham 9x20, or Microlux 7x14 and they seem to get decent reviews while the Jet 920 does not. Does anybody know of these lathes or can you point me in a better direction than I'm heading now. Thanks for the help in advance!

Regards,
Kevin

Post by **KurtHuhn** » Mon Apr 20, 2009 1:15 pm

What you're going to find is that any of the new 9x20 lathes on the market are going to be pretty much identical to any other 9x20 regardless of who's name is on the side. The differences will be packaged accessories, color, price, and service.

FWIW: Jet's service is second to none. I've also heard great things about Grizzly's service.

For my money, however, nothing beats a good, solid piece of old iron. I love my South Bend 9C. With it I've been able to do some pretty high-precision machining like these reproduction retainer pins I made for an antique brass candle chandelier my parents have.

The original is the one in the back.

smokindawg · Post by **smokindawg** » Mon Apr 20, 2009 1:34 pm

Yep, old iron is the way to go if you can find one in decent shape (Which is tricky sometimes) and hasn't been worn out.

With used, you can sometimes find a great deal and get lots of extra things that you won't get with new.

The lathe is always, or most times, the cheap part, then all the tooling you will need to invest in.

I've just got an older Atlas 6x18 and finally got if fired up this weekend, now I get to learn how to use it.

Kurt, how do you turn a ball end like that? I take it making your own cutting tools is part of it, but what are the secrets to it?

Tsunami · Post by **Tsunami** » Mon Apr 20, 2009 2:29 pm

I love my 1943 South Bend 9a. I bought it local for a song. Try looking at ebay. There is one (heavy 10) located in Illinois now with a bid of 212.00 dollars on it. Now that Grizzly has aquired South Bend they are now making replacement parts for the old machines. Nothing like an American classic for quality.

ToddJohnson · Post by **ToddJohnson** » Mon Apr 20, 2009 11:53 pm

KurtHuhn wrote:What you're going to find is that any of the new 9x20 lathes on the market are going to be pretty much identical to any other 9x20 regardless of who's name is on the side. The differences will be packaged accessories, color, price, and service.

Hey Kurt,

I'm not saying that all 9 x 20's are completely different and that a fair amount of re-branding doesn't go on, however, my Jet weighs 57lbs. more than the Grizzly I have. Lots of the parts that are cast steel on the jet are pot metal on the Grizzly. I have something of a lathe collection at this point, and I never really liked any of the 9 x 20's I have. That said, the Jet BD920N has served a lot of pipemakers well and in my opinion it is a cut above the Harbor Freight or Grizzly equivalent. For what it's worth, I think the very best machines are made by Knuth, but they don't really qualify as "affordable." I agree that "old iron" is a pretty dependable route in most cases.

Todd

RadDavis · Post by **RadDavis** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 12:20 am

I agree with Todd,

I have had both the Enco and currently the Jet 9 x 20.

They look identical, but the spindle threading is different, the tail stocks are not interchangeable, and the Enco is a piece of shit.

Rad

geigerpipes · Post by **geigerpipes** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 2:02 am

Todd

Its funny that you praise knuth lathes highly..having never tried one I cannot comment on their quality but I bought a knuth lathe tool sharpener and a knuth dust collector and bouth had serious problems with them..The lathe tool sharpener was so badly putt togheter that I sent it back..

The lathes might be a different story though...

I would love to one day get my hands on a shaublin lathe.. Swiss precision at its best
http://www.lathes.co.uk/schaublin/page13.html

ToddJohnson · Post by **ToddJohnson** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 7:09 am

geigerpipes wrote:Todd

Its funny that you praise knuth lathes highly..having never tried one I cannot comment on their quality but I bought a knuth lathe tool sharpener and a knuth dust collector and bouth had serious problems with them..The lathe tool sharpener was so badly putt togheter that I sent it back..

The lathes might be a different story though...

I would love to one day get my hands on a shaublin lathe.. Swiss precision at its best
http://www.lathes.co.uk/schaublin/page13.html

Hey Love,

I remember reading that Knuth tools distributed in Europe were made in Taiwan while those that went to the US were made in one of Knuth's German factories. I don't know if this is still true or not. Mine have been like the Toyota Camry of lathes.

Todd

geigerpipes · Post by **geigerpipes** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 7:13 am

you might be right... they reeked asian

Danskpibemager · Post by **Danskpibemager** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 8:15 am

Thanks for all the input guys! I'm a couple of months away from a purchase so I'll see what develops on Craigslist and Ebay. 2 weeks ago there was a Logan that looked like new posted on Craigslist for $400.00 and 20 miles from my house. I called the seller and it was his late father's lathe with 50 or so hours of shop time on it he thought, however it had sold 30 minutes before my call. Right place, right time type of thing I guess. Hopefully something else will come up in the near future because I know old American lathes are the way to go. Thanks again and see you all at the Chicago Show.

Regards,
Kevin

Post by **KurtHuhn** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 9:17 am

smokindawg wrote: Kurt, how do you turn a ball end like that? I take it making your own cutting tools is part of it, but what are the secrets to it?

I did that entirely freehand - etch-a-sketch style - with some light passes of emery cloth just to clean up the ridges on the ball. The bit I used had a very pointy cutting tip so that I could get into the area between the ball and the flange. But other than that, no specialized bits were used.

Learning to grind your own bits for specialized purposes is very, very helpful. The only cutting bits I have are plain old 1/4" HSS bits from Enco, and I grind them to shape on the belt grinder.

Post by **KurtHuhn** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 9:30 am

ToddJohnson wrote:
KurtHuhn wrote:What you're going to find is that any of the new 9x20 lathes on the market are going to be pretty much identical to any other 9x20 regardless of who's name is on the side. The differences will be packaged accessories, color, price, and service.

I'm not saying that all 9 x 20's are completely different and that a fair amount of re-branding doesn't go on, however, my Jet weighs 57lbs. more than the Grizzly I have. Lots of the parts that are cast steel on the jet are pot metal on the Grizzly. I have something of a lathe collection at this point, and I never really liked any of the 9 x 20's I have. That said, the Jet BD920N has served a lot of pipemakers well and in my opinion it is a cut above the Harbor Freight or Grizzly equivalent. For what it's worth, I think the very best machines are made by Knuth, but they don't really qualify as "affordable." I agree that "old iron" is a pretty dependable route in most cases.

Todd

You're preaching to the choir Todd. But if there's one thing I've learned over my years of giving advice on tooling, some to folks who are very close friends, is that when they've made up their mind about a tool, dissuading them based on your experience is damn near impossible. The mentality seems to be "I'm not making rockets, and I'm not going to stress the machine, so this will be good enough" - except I then have to bite my tongue when they send me emails asking how to fix the cross slide, or the gibs that keep falling out. We're a nation hell bent on getting things for the cheapest price possible, quality be damned. Just look at Wal-Mart's success built upon that mentality.

Maybe I'm tired of trying to explain the difference between pot metal and machined steel - or worse, why glass filled plastic gears are you're worst enemy. But I agree with you 1000%. I've never fallen for the argument "It's just the Jet name plate that costs an extra $400" that seems so prevalent among some hobbyists. If it was, I seriously doubt Jet would be able to sell so many of them.

That's why, when I needed a new drill press, I got a Hitachi:
http://pipecrafter.blogspot.com/2008/08 ... press.html

And when I decided to get a metal lathe, I looked for old iron - it just happened that Jack had one he was selling right after I started looking.

Frank · Post by **Frank** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 3:02 pm

KurtHuhn wrote:And when I decided to get a metal lathe, I looked for old iron - it just happened that Jack had one he was selling right after I started looking.

It's a pity he hasn't been hanging around the forum for a while. He not only has a darn good knowledge of "old iron", but has a nose for where to find them.

pierredekat · Post by **pierredekat** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 10:13 pm

If we're talking precision lathes, I'm gonna have to say go with some vintage steel: Atlas (also includes a few Craftsman branded lathes), Logan, South Bend, etc.

The beauty of these things is that a lot of them have already survived for 50 years, which should tell you something.

And replacement parts for several different vintage lathes are readily available on Ebay. But before you buy, you might want to snoop around over on Ebay to see which lathes have the most parts available.

Try not to get too caught up in thread-cutting setups, unless you're planning on threading your pipes.

More important when it comes to making pipes is chuck setups -- Can you get a decent 3 and 4-jaw chuck for it?

Generally this shouldn't be a problem, but some really, really OLD lathes had some unusual spindle threads, back before they started standardizing things, sometime around the 20's and 30's.

Another thing to consider would be spindle throughput -- can you poke 3/4 inch rod stock through the spindle? If so, that will save you a lot of scrap.

And you might not even need a center with such a lathe. You just poke enough material out to do the tenon, drill it, poke a little more material out and taper/shape the stem, poke a little more material out to do a little sanding, poke a little more material out to get your cutoff tool where it needs to be, and you're done.

Danskpibemager · Post by **Danskpibemager** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 11:39 pm

Hi Guys,
Have any of you noticed this: http://southbendlathe.com/home.aspx

It looks like the company is starting up again? Having spent 22 years in Engineering as a Designer and countless hours in a machine shop overseeing my designs believe me I know the quality of American machinery so I will wait and see what turns up in the way of old iron. Fortunately for the most part I'm oblivious to instant gratification so the wait won't be painful. I did find out (not sure if true) that Birmingham lathes are made to the same specs as the Jet series. We'll see and thanks again for all the comments.

Kevin

Post by **KurtHuhn** » Wed Apr 22, 2009 9:16 am

Danskpibemager wrote:Hi Guys,
Have any of you noticed this: http://southbendlathe.com/home.aspx

The owner of Grizzly Tools is spearheading the effort to bring back the South Bend name. I've been watching this like a hawk, and gleaning all I can from various machinist and hobbyist forums. I'm primarily interested in how they're going to differentiate the South Bend lathes from Grizzly's current offerings. Primarily, will they be substantially different enough to make investing another few hundred worth someone's while?

Hopefully it's not just another Grizzly with a different name tag. That would seriously irritate me.

Tsunami · Post by **Tsunami** » Wed Apr 22, 2009 10:39 am

Tsunami wrote: Now that Grizzly has aquired South Bend they are now making replacement parts for the old machines. Nothing like an American classic for quality.

Like I said, Grizzly bought South Bend from LeBlonde and is producing them again as well as older parts. You can even send them your serial number off your old South Bend and they will send you a scan of the original paperwork on your lathe. That's how I know mine was shipped in Aug 1943.

Frank · Post by **Frank** » Wed Apr 22, 2009 12:02 pm

Tsunami wrote:
Tsunami wrote: Now that Grizzly has aquired South Bend they are now making replacement parts for the old machines. Nothing like an American classic for quality.
Like I said, Grizzly bought South Bend from LeBlonde and is producing them again as well as older parts. You can even send them your serial number off your old South Bend and they will send you a scan of the original paperwork on your lathe. That's how I know mine was shipped in Aug 1943.

The question remains, will they produce South Bend machines comparable to the originals, or will it be lower quality steel cast into South Bend molds in China? As "they" say, the proof of the pudding..... yadda yadda.

Tsunami · Post by **Tsunami** » Wed Apr 22, 2009 2:35 pm

According to the owner (papagrizzly) on practical machinist.com, He is not going to rubber stamp Grizzly lathes with South Bend names. He insists on South Bend remaining it's own company. So I guess I will take him at his word. Cruz on over there to PM and read the threads on the South Bend forum.

P.S. Here is an example of the Serial Card you can get now from South Bend. This is mine