a matter of taste... but what is that?

[KurtHuhn]

It might be kinda like pornography "I'll know it when I see it".

My belief is that taste is an individual thing dependent upon the sum of a person's experiences. While groups of people may share common likes and dislikes, I don't think you can lump aesthetics into being a "group thing".

Of course that's just my opinion, and I hold some rather unpopular opinions.

On the other hand, you may be able to predict the tastes of a particular person based on knowledge of their past and the segment of society they associate with. Profiling, essentially, and I'm sure this would work.

However, I still think that the individual is the final deterministic factor, and only they can say what pleases them aestheticly.

[whitebar]

On the other hand, you may be able to predict the tastes of a particular person based on knowledge of their past and the segment of society they associate with. Profiling, essentially, and I'm sure this would work.

As a college professor who teaches speech communication and debate, one of the things my students work on is audience analysis. This involves exploring what the audience already knows and what they might find interesting. The goal is to provide a speech that contains new material for your audience and holds their attention.

A speech on investing in blue chip stocks would contain completely different material when presented to a group of college students and a group of doctors or lawyers. The second group would presumably have some money that could be invested now and they would likely be interested in specific tips about specific stocks. The first group would probably benefit more from a general handling of the subject including the idea that money invested will compound over time. Specific tips would not be interesting because they could not run out and invest.

I think this carries over into pipe making as well. Asking yourself who you are trying to reach with your work can be quite valuable. Is your audience mainly interested in a smokable pipe that is affordable? Another audience might be interested in nothing but the highest quality (grain, fit, finish, engineering, etc.) and price might not as much of an issue for them. I believe time spent analyzing your audience will most certainly pay off in the form of faster pipe sales.

I don't know the answers but this is something I think about.

[jeff]

I think this carries over into pipe making as well. Asking yourself who you are trying to reach with your work can be quite valuable. Is your audience mainly interested in a smokable pipe that is affordable? Another audience might be interested in nothing but the highest quality (grain, fit, finish, engineering, etc.) and price might not as much of an issue for them. I believe time spent analyzing your audience will most certainly pay off in the form of faster pipe sales.

I don't know the answers but this is something I think about.

I think this is right on. When I have said that "taste is a collective thing" that doesn't mean that particular individuals will not depart from that collective aesthetic. I simply mean that creating a pipe with the mindset that says "Well, since taste is an entirely subjective and individual thing, there's got to be *somebody* out there it will appeal to" leaves you with a market of two or three people. If you want or need to sell pipes, this is a terrible design/execution/marketing scheme.

I also think that taste is subjective only to a point. There are things that almost everyone finds beautiful, a sunset for instance. Equally, there are things that almost everyone finds "ugly" or distasteful, Martha Stewart for instance <G>. In our post-modern world I realize that being able to cite an exception to a rule supposedly undermines that rule, but are we really unable to say that a sunset is beautiful and Martha Stewart is not? Have you ever noticed her burly man-hands by the way? Anyway, my point is that yes, taste is a subjective thing, but it also occurs within certain parameters, within certain communally constructed aesthetic models.

The easiest way to see this is in cultural and anthropological studies. For instance, a crooked nose and a unabrow were extremely masculine and desirable features in the ancient world. The men who had them were a real hit with the ladyfolk. This is something I think would garner little support amongst our modern women. Also, within certain contemporary cultures it is easy to see other culturally prescribed differences in taste and aesthetics which are communal. Amongst the Massai in Africa it is considered a thing of beauty for the women to swathe themselves in ox blood, covering their hair and body. You'd be hard-pressed to find a Massai male that didn't get all torqued up about a "red haired" woman. Again, I think if you asked the average caucasian male in the west he would tell you that this is just gross.

I find this apropos of our current discussion. Maybe you don't. After all, it's a very subjective thing right?

Todd

[ToddJohnson]

Sorry guys, the above post with Jeff's name in the upper left corner and mine in the signature line *was* actually posted by me. We're hanging out making some pipes together and I guess he was logged in to my comp. Sorry for the confusion.

Todd

[abbeypipes]

entirely subjective is the matter of taste,influenced by too many things! ,to quote an old saying;if it suits the wearer ******* the starer!
regards

[JMB]

random, I don't know about the boys on the other side of the pond, but down here in Texas you must own a lot of different types of pipes. A good hand full for all night BBQ smoking contest. You smoke the meat all night too. A fist full for goat ropings, now these are not your best pipes as you don't want to be to fancy at those. You save some of your good pipes for the Saturday night two stepping to impress the ladies. Now you best and #1 pipe you have in your left hand when you use your right hand to shake the Pastors hand after Church on Sunday. I say your best pipe because you never know, he might be a pipe smoker too. esp if you are in Midland, Texas.lol

[Sir_Saartan]

I'm not sure if I'm considered qualified to answer, but I have some thoughts (though I am unable to achieve that due to a lack of skill):

there are things that appeal to the human eye, that are said to be "objectively beautiful".
examples are
- the golden cut
- the divine proportion spiral

agreed: individual taste is a difficult thing, but there are things you can incorporate in your
work that will statistically increase the number of people your pipe will appeal to.

I know there are many people out there who are doing a great job of doing this,
though I am not sure it's more of a feeling thing or planned. A person I want to
name here who I think this applies to is Michael Addis. I've seen lots of his pipes,
which is why I name him here. If you look at them, they usually have what I call
an "organic flow" in them, meaning they look like something that could have been
grown naturally. the lines and proportions just look "right" to me.

In my opinion, the developpment of the "classical forms" for pipes has to do with
the fact that these have lines and proportions that fit into that scheme.

[RickB]

My dude there is a date stamp on these threads... and this one's super excited about getting its driver's license next week.

[Sir_Saartan]

My dude there is a date stamp on these threads... and this one's super excited about getting its driver's license next week.

Thank you.

So just for clarification: Instead of reviving an old thread, I should - if I am interested in
further comments to what has been said years ago - start a new one with the same toppic?

I have just joined this forum, so I am not aware of how you handle things here. I have started
to read through all the old material, and I was going to add some questions here and there where
I thought I needed them.

Obviously: I'm a noob, both regarding pipe making as well in regard to being a member of this forum.
I'll be happy to follow whatever rules/ habits are in place, if anyone points them out to me.

[caskwith]

Nothing wrong with reviving an old thread in my mind if it's on topic. Not only does it show that you are searching for answers (which is good) but it also brings up useful information that may be new to some members.

[JMG]

My dude there is a date stamp on these threads... and this one's super excited about getting its driver's license next week.

*audible chuckle*

[RickB]

My dude there is a date stamp on these threads... and this one's super excited about getting its driver's license next week.

Thank you.

So just for clarification: Instead of reviving an old thread, I should - if I am interested in
further comments to what has been said years ago - start a new one with the same toppic?

I have just joined this forum, so I am not aware of how you handle things here. I have started
to read through all the old material, and I was going to add some questions here and there where
I thought I needed them.

Obviously: I'm a noob, both regarding pipe making as well in regard to being a member of this forum.
I'll be happy to follow whatever rules/ habits are in place, if anyone points them out to me.

So - welcome to the forum - we've chatted a bit on... I don't remember which one but one of the other forums (PSD maybe?)
Anyway - this forum is... not like most forums, and to a certain extent it's a bit of a damned if you do / damned if you don't situation in this case. If you open a ton of new threads, you're going to get told to use the search function in every single one of them. If you necro-bump a bunch of threads, you're extremely unlikely to get any interaction with any of the original participants and you're very likely to have some sarcastic asshole like myself come in and be snarky and bust your balls a little. My advice on learning the habits of this place would just be to keep doing what you're doing and read all the old stuff - I just think you'd be wise to consider the book closed on a lot of those threads with regards to whether they need a response 14 years later. There's something to be said for lurking for awhile before diving in (though I understand the impulse) - I lurked and read for years before posting anything, and I still did all manner of stupid bullshit when I did
Point being - I think it's wise to treat this place a little bit like a school - worth coming in and listening and learning a bit before inserting yourself a lot. And just to be like super clear - I really don't want this to come across as an attack on you or anything man, we've all been there.

Nothing wrong with reviving an old thread in my mind if it's on topic. Not only does it show that you are searching for answers (which is good) but it also brings up useful information that may be new to some members.

Generally agreed, but I also wouldn't expect any of the old timers from a 16 year old thread who haven't logged in since 2009 to suddenly jump back into things.
Going to get a little meta here, but a tough online life lesson for me was learning to examine and try to discern my motivation for wanting to voice my opinion or thoughts on something - was I commenting because I actually had a question or something worthwhile or informative to contribute to the dialogue, or was it because I was seeking validation of some sort? If it's the latter, does it really need to be said? Hell, I'm still guilty of it sometimes (like now, probably). ~3 years and ~60 pipes in, I finally feel like I'm hitting a point where I might occasionally have something to add that might help someone, but I'd sure encourage newer folks to listen to people like you who actually know what they're doing before they listen to me.

[Sir_Saartan]

Thank you..yes it's PSD

I thank you for your kindo words.

One thing needs to be said: I appreciate you saying I know what I am doing.
I feel like I don't but maybe that's because I have already learned enough to
see a lot of things I can't do.