SB for Tyler

[JHowell]

Or maybe not.

http://cgi.ebay.com/South-Bend-Heavy-Te ... dZViewItem

I don't know where Mesquite is, but this lathe could be worth a look. It's missing the leadscrew train, saddle and apron, and tail stock. But if it only goes for $200 and it's close enough to inspect, it's a starting point. If the motor is good and the headstock is good, and the ways aren't damaged, you've got the heart of one of SB's best lathes ever with the hardened ways. It's got a nice cabinet, too. You'd need a tail stock and carriage, and both the saddle and tail stock will have to be scraped in to mate with the bed, but a gearbox and lead screw aren't absolutely necessary to make pipes, they're for threading and power feed. I'd guess you're looking at around $300-500 in parts, depending on luck, to get it making pipes, plus some work. A project, certainly, but Texas isn't exactly happy hunting for old machine tools.

[Tyler]

Hmm...potential!

Mesquite is about 350 miles away, but the in-laws are right about 20 miles away. Plus, my father in law is fairly machine savy. He'd definitely pick it up for my and hold until my next visit.

Thanks!

So Jack, could I nag you with a little phone-support on the refurb?

Also, where would I start in looking for parts?

Tyler

[JHowell]

Excellent, a machine-savvy father-in-law is just what you need. A machine like this takes some detective work and reading between the lines. Why would a carriage, gear train, and tailstock be removed from a Heavy 10, which, complete, is a rather valuable machine? Presumably to repair another machine that had been crashed. Or perhaps those parts were crashed on this machine, but in that case I'd expect them to remain.

Maybe the damaged parts were removed for repair but never got repaired and got lost, but let's assume for the moment that they were removed intact. What, then, is wrong with this lathe that would make it sacrificial? The seller says the spindle bearings are good -- that remains to be verified. If the spindle turns freely and doesn't clunk when pulled up, down, in, out, that may be true. He doesn't mention the back gear -- that could be broken, but you don't need it for pipes anyway. He says the motor is new, but not that it runs. The machine is advertised as having hardened ways. Hardened ways can be worn, if they are abused with abrasives, but it's almost impossible to wear a lathe out to the point that it can't be used for making pipes.

Belts? Replacing the flat belt on a Heavy 10 requires a glued splice on the machine, since the slots in the bed don't allow an endless belt replacement. If the belt is gone it's not the end of the world; good for you if the owner was too lazy to tackle it, too bad for the machine if that's why it wound up being a donor.

For parts, the best thing to do is haunt the machine forums and watch ebay. Here's what a Heavy 10 looks like, so you can see what you're missing:

http://cgi.ebay.com/South-Bend-Heavy-10 ... dZViewItem

I haven't seen a carriage and tailstock recently, but then I haven't been looking. There are a couple of used machine dealers who are very good and reliable and will keep an eye out for parts. This guy is good:

http://www.tools4cheap.net/

Looks like he's parting out a 13" and a 16" now, he's always getting machines in and if he knows what you want he may give you a shot before it gets to ebay.

Of course, I'll help as much as I can, but the best source for answers is probably this group:

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/fo ... y.php?f=25

It's where I go when I break stuff or buy something in boxes and can't figure it out.

I hope either it's a really clean, running headstock and a nearly new bed and you wind up with a great lathe, or that it's a complete pile of garbage and your father-in-law walks away from it. In between, that's where it could get messy.

Good luck,

[Tyler]

Well, I've dropped a line to the seller asking for contact info. We'll see if he's willing to talk or have my FIL drop by.

Thanks again Jack.

Tyler

[Tyler]

Well, it didn't sell so hopefully I'll get a shot when the seller gets back in town.

Jack, what offer would you make in light of the fact that it didn't draw $200 on eBay?

Tyler

[JHowell]

Hmm. I would have had my father-in-law check it out and paid $200 for it. I'm a little surprised nobody wanted it; you could strip a heavy 10 headstock and get that much for the parts, let alone the pulleys and motor. May just be where it is. I'd have a look. If the headstock works and the ways are good -- look for a ridge left by the saddle -- I'd say $200 is pretty fair. But I dunno, maybe it can be gotten cheaper, see what he says.

On the other hand, scraping in a saddle and tail stock may not be what you want to do. It takes some investment of time (and a little money) to learn the principles of hand scraping. I have a bad habit of just diving in with projects like this and picking up what I need to know as I go along. And sometimes projects tend to take longer and cost more than I expected. A lathe bed and saddle are mated at the factory and wear together, so when you mix them from different machines some adjustment is required. Maybe a little machining, too, if the replacement saddle is very worn.

So. I have to confess that I'm a really bad example when it comes to running an efficient, profitable shop and spending wisely on equipment. If I took the money I've spent on various machines and all the time I've spent screwing around with them and used that time to make pipes, I could have had just about any lathe I wanted. But I like learning stuff, and I like old machines, and it's still cheaper than motorcycles.

The professional move would be to save a grand and buy a Jet 920. No loose ends, no uncertainty over what missing parts will cost and if they will fit, just plug it in and go. Or look for a used one that's only a couple years old. I remember when I moved to New Zealand, a colleague was helping me look for a motorcycle. "Look at this," he said, waving the paper. "It's a Ural 650 with sidecar! It's YOU!" "No, it's not," I replied. "I don't want a sidecar, I wouldn't want one even with a real motor, and I don't want a Ural, I need something that will get me to work." "You're right," he said. "Actually, it's me, I just want to live through you."

Good on ya, Tyler.

[JHowell]

I woke up thinking about this. My first thought when I saw the bed/cabinet/headstock was that this could be a way to have a working Heavy 10 for well under a thousand bucks, given some luck. But I'm projecting what I'd be willing to do, and a best case scenario, which is that the ways are in great shape. Some sellers know what it means for ways to be in great shape, others just mean they LOOK great because there aren't big chips and holes in them, or they aren't covered in pitted rust.

The worst case scenario deserves consideration, though. Let's say the bed is really worn. If the bed is heavily worn, it will be impossible to scrape a new saddle to fit -- the ways will be thinner down by the chuck and thicker back by the tail stock, so that gibs adjusted for a good fit down by the chuck will be too tight for machining a long shaft, and vice versa. This is not a problem for pipemakers given a lathe whose parts have grown old together, but it makes Frankensteining a lathe back together difficult. An old saddle would have worn here and there in ways that it would be counterproductive to try to duplicate by hand. And that could be why this lathe is missing its limbs.

The remedy in that case is to send the lathe out for regrinding. There are a couple of shops in the US who still do this work, but I doubt there's one in Texas. What you do is send them all the mating parts -- bed, headstock, saddle, apron, lead screw, tail stock. They surface grind (BIG surface grinder/jigs) all the mating surfaces so that they match perfectly, then adjust parts as necessary -- for instance, if you take .020" off the bed and .015" off the saddle vees, you have to take .035" off the top of the apron or the pinion gear won't engage the bed rack sufficiently and you'll have lots of slop and wear the tips off the teeth. And if you take .020" off the tailstock vees you either have to take that off the headstock or shim up the tail stock or it will be too low. Cost could be between $800 and $1200. The alternative would be to hand scrape everything, which can be and has been done, but that takes skill and experience. Not a good first scraping project. It has to be remembered that a complete Heavy 10 in new condition -- which it would be with a good regrind -- is easily a $3000 machine. The lathe would be a really beautiful thing, just accurate as anything and ready for another 40 years of work. But while the deal may make sense to a machine dealer or lathe freak, starting with $200 and being in for another $500 for a carriage and tail stock and then looking at another thousand for regrinding could really stink for a guy who just wants to make pipes.

An alternative would be to look for a good used bed/saddle, already mated but whose head stock is missing. I've seen those, too. But that's more uncertainty, and approximately 500# of iron sitting in your shop waiting for parts. You'd basically be buying the headstock and cabinet, and shopping for the rest. Prices for Heavy 10 beds/saddles depend, not surprisingly, on condition -- free to a couple hundred. Jeff, the tools4cheap guy, is a good source.

Fair enough -- how do you tell if the bed is worn? Well, if it's a flame hardened bed it shouldn't be worn much unless it was used with abrasives, like for polishing or with a toolpost grinder. But the first thing you look for is a groove along the length of the front V-way. This is where machining forces bear the hardest, and heavy wear will show as a groove that is absent at the ends of the way and deepest right in front of the chuck, where most machining takes place. You can also check with a really good straight edge and feeler gauges, though most straight edges won't qualify for this kind of precision. You can also check for wear using the tail stock with a dial indicator to measure the saddle ways relative to the tail stock ways. Since the two sets of ways wear in different areas, you can use one to check the other if you pick your spots. Of course, with no saddle or tail stock, you can't do that.

Sorry to ramble. Old American iron is regarded by many as the best manual machinery to have, and there are cases where that's true. Almost anything can be fixed. I'll amend that. ANYTHING can be fixed. It's just a question of how deep in you want to get. And whether or not you enjoy being "in" in the first place.

Addendum: looking at the pictures again, I notice the paint is worn off the headstock casting but not off the covers or bearing caps. There may be an explanation for this, but the machine may have *started* as a Frankenstein project and the seller got to a point where he realized his position was untenable. Also the rear bearing oil filler is missing. If your FIL has a chance to inspect, look for abrasive dust residue. The pulleys have a kind of gray, dusty look to them. The seller doesn't show the parts of the ways you really want to see, and if the ways were flame hardened there ought to be a big "Flame Hardened" tag right above the SB casting, just like in the picture of the all-together one. Not all hardened beds had this tag, but it bears touching the end of the bed with a file. All in all, the market may be right, it may not be "worth" $200. If it were 20 miles from me, I'd probably have it in my garage right now, and be thinking, "Well, Jack, you've really done it this time."

[Tyler]

If it were 20 miles from me, I'd probably have it in my garage right now, and be thinking, "Well, Jack, you've really done it this time."

After all of that, I must say that was a brilliant ending! LOL!

You've completely and thoroughly talked me out of it. I think it is best, therefore, to say THANKS!

I'm like you in regard to just diving in and loving to learn. Where we differ is in the loving old tools. I'm more of a means-to-an-end guy when it comes to tools, and I am always on the look out for a deal. This sounds like a "deal" alright, but not the kind I need more of. I have plenty of that kind already.

Thanks again!

Tyler

[Frank]

Jack, thanks for the in-depth explanation of what could be required to refurbish an old lathe. Your insight and experience makes for interesting reading. I'm glad you're a pipemaker as well as an "old iron" enthusiast, otherwise I'd have to wander over to the Practical Machinist forum to learn this sort of stuff.

[kkendall]

Fair enough -- how do you tell if the bed is worn? Well, if it's a flame hardened bed it shouldn't be worn much unless it was used with abrasives, like for polishing or with a toolpost grinder. ...

Is flame hardened ways that much harder than induction hardened ways?

Thx
-Kim

[JHowell]

Fair enough -- how do you tell if the bed is worn? Well, if it's a flame hardened bed it shouldn't be worn much unless it was used with abrasives, like for polishing or with a toolpost grinder. ...

Is flame hardened ways that much harder than induction hardened ways?

Thx
-Kim

Kim,

I don't think one is harder than the other. The hardness is a property of the metallurgy, not the method of heating.

Frank,

By all means, read the PM group, especially the South Bend forum. That's where a couple of the guys who helped me the most hang out. It's super-informative, and frequently hilarious.

Please don't anyone get the idea that I know a lot about lathes -- I just know a few things from having stepped in the proverbial cowpies myself. The real experts are over on the Yahoo SB group and on the PM Manufacturing Forum. My suggestion would be to go over there and search for "Addy" and "Turk." Also "Rozen."

[KurtHuhn]

Is flame hardened ways that much harder than induction hardened ways?

I don't think one is harder than the other. The hardness is a property of the metallurgy, not the method of heating.

Jack is right. It's a question of heat, time, and cooling. The method of heating has nothing to do with it.