What lathe to get?
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PiperPablo
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What lathe to get?
I’ve been looking all over the forum as to what lathes people use or recommend but can’t find anything specific. I have a drill press but a lathe seems like the best option. Can anyone give a recommendation and some reasons why ? Thanks
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UnderShade
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Re: What lathe to get?
I got a Grizzly G4000 9X20 metal lathe about 3 months ago and I love it! Was a game changer for my pipe making. It’s about $1700. There’s definitely a learning curve with general use and tool grinding, but not bad. I also have a 10X18 wood lathe that I still use with Kurt’s french wheel/Abralon setup and a Beall 3 wheel buffing mandrel. It’s a great little lathe from Harbor Freight that can be had for around $200.
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LatakiaLover
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Re: What lathe to get?
The most basic rule is bigger is better. Most beginners think they can get by with less than they need, and hate they way a small machine's shortcomings reveal themselves incrementally. Phrases like, "Had I only known!", "Why didn't somebody tell me I could do operation x in one step instead of four?", and "I'm gonna have to shorten that tool and change the bowl angle for this damn thing to FIT???" are heard with distressing frequency wherever new guys are working.
UFOs must be real. There's no other explanation for cats.
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KurtHuhn
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Re: What lathe to get?
If you can afford a metal lathe, 9x20 is the minimum you should consider. 9 inches of swing seems like a lot, but it isn't. It's, what I would call, the bare minimum - but in this case, the bare minimum (as far as size) is really just fine.
Metal Lathe, Old vs. new:
Every respectable manufacturer there ever was, made 10s of thousands of these, and you can sometimes find them for a really good price. Atlas, Hardinge, South Bend, Logan, the list goes on. My South Bend 9c has seen some shit, and it still works great as long as I work within it's capabilities (the limits of which are mostly due to my motor choice). Mid 19th century metal lathes are damn near everywhere, and there is a healthy market for suppliers of parts should the need arise. With some small effort, modern QC toolposts can be fitted to them as well, bringing the joys of carbide tooling and super fast setup times with them. If you go this route, some things to think about:
- The seller should know what they have, and be able to answer questions about it
- Never buy a lathe without seeing it run
- Do your research on the model of lathe you're looking to buy, become familiar with it
- Look for deals that include lots of tooling, if not you're going to spend as much on tooling as you did the lathe
- You will probably still spend as much on tooling as you did the lathe
New lathes can be expensive, but if you buy a good one, you'll use it for the rest of your life. South Bend (the new brand from Grizzly), Precision Mathews, Jet, Grizzly, and others are all good choices. Some, like Enco, can be hit or miss. If you buy a new lathe, it will come with a minimum of tooling - sure, it looks like a lot when you see the bulleted list on the website, but you'll find it's the absolute bare minimum to make the lathe do "a thing", and "a thing" will only be remotely related to pipe making. Or, really, making much of anything else.
Old or new, the best warning I can give, is to make sure you have budget left over for tooling. When I tell you that I probably have 5 or 6 times invested in tooling and maintenance parts for my lathe as I do the lathe itself, it's probably a lowball estimate to make myself feel better.
Wood lathe:
Some will tell you that you cannot make pipes on a wood lathe alone. They are wrong. I did it for several years. Even after buying a metal lathe, I did most work on the wood lathe - because I knew how, and it was faster, and was more flexible. Nowadays the work is evenly split, and now my skillsets as a machinist are much higher, so I can say that, beyond all shadow of a doubt, some operations are more precise and easier to learn on a metal lathe. But, if you only have $500 to spend, a wood lathe can look very attractive.
The minimum entry size for a wood lathe is 10x14 - never go smaller. Delta, Jet, Grizzly, and few others make good examples that, at least at the time I bought mine, were the defacto standard for this kind of work. Bigger is fine, and will give you more flexibility to do other stuff (just as a larger metal lathe will).
If you go for a wood lathe, the same warning about tooling applies. You're going to need to account for chucks and jaws, tailstock chuck, chisels and various torning tools, and drill bits you don't right now know exist.
The price of wood lathes can be so low that buying a used one may not be necessary. Beware of these, as they can be abused and misused. With luck they were simply bought by someone with more money than time or brains, and will be in decent shape. Same caveats as for used metal lathes apply here.
Metal or wood, old or new, never buy anything that bears the Harbor Freight name, and don't buy anything with a funny name that looks like a jumble of English words from eBay.
Metal Lathe, Old vs. new:
Every respectable manufacturer there ever was, made 10s of thousands of these, and you can sometimes find them for a really good price. Atlas, Hardinge, South Bend, Logan, the list goes on. My South Bend 9c has seen some shit, and it still works great as long as I work within it's capabilities (the limits of which are mostly due to my motor choice). Mid 19th century metal lathes are damn near everywhere, and there is a healthy market for suppliers of parts should the need arise. With some small effort, modern QC toolposts can be fitted to them as well, bringing the joys of carbide tooling and super fast setup times with them. If you go this route, some things to think about:
- The seller should know what they have, and be able to answer questions about it
- Never buy a lathe without seeing it run
- Do your research on the model of lathe you're looking to buy, become familiar with it
- Look for deals that include lots of tooling, if not you're going to spend as much on tooling as you did the lathe
- You will probably still spend as much on tooling as you did the lathe
New lathes can be expensive, but if you buy a good one, you'll use it for the rest of your life. South Bend (the new brand from Grizzly), Precision Mathews, Jet, Grizzly, and others are all good choices. Some, like Enco, can be hit or miss. If you buy a new lathe, it will come with a minimum of tooling - sure, it looks like a lot when you see the bulleted list on the website, but you'll find it's the absolute bare minimum to make the lathe do "a thing", and "a thing" will only be remotely related to pipe making. Or, really, making much of anything else.
Old or new, the best warning I can give, is to make sure you have budget left over for tooling. When I tell you that I probably have 5 or 6 times invested in tooling and maintenance parts for my lathe as I do the lathe itself, it's probably a lowball estimate to make myself feel better.
Wood lathe:
Some will tell you that you cannot make pipes on a wood lathe alone. They are wrong. I did it for several years. Even after buying a metal lathe, I did most work on the wood lathe - because I knew how, and it was faster, and was more flexible. Nowadays the work is evenly split, and now my skillsets as a machinist are much higher, so I can say that, beyond all shadow of a doubt, some operations are more precise and easier to learn on a metal lathe. But, if you only have $500 to spend, a wood lathe can look very attractive.
The minimum entry size for a wood lathe is 10x14 - never go smaller. Delta, Jet, Grizzly, and few others make good examples that, at least at the time I bought mine, were the defacto standard for this kind of work. Bigger is fine, and will give you more flexibility to do other stuff (just as a larger metal lathe will).
If you go for a wood lathe, the same warning about tooling applies. You're going to need to account for chucks and jaws, tailstock chuck, chisels and various torning tools, and drill bits you don't right now know exist.
The price of wood lathes can be so low that buying a used one may not be necessary. Beware of these, as they can be abused and misused. With luck they were simply bought by someone with more money than time or brains, and will be in decent shape. Same caveats as for used metal lathes apply here.
Metal or wood, old or new, never buy anything that bears the Harbor Freight name, and don't buy anything with a funny name that looks like a jumble of English words from eBay.
Re: What lathe to get?
Kurt,
I don’t want to misguide anybody, and I have heard plenty of stories about HF stuff, but my experience with HF stuff has been pretty good.
I have only used Harbor Freight lathes- but I only do stems on the lathe and do the occasional custom bit and stuff.
I think the HF 8x12” is a fantastic piece of machinery for $750 ( I got mine with a 25% coupon, but I see them at that price regularly now.) The 7x10” that I used before was OK, and I made plenty of stems on it, but it is almost toy like compared to the 8x12”
I do have an older HF lathe made in Taiwan that is larger, and will be bringing that in my shop later this year after I get a concrete pad poured for it. My brother used that for automotive and gunsmithing tasks with no complaints.
DocAitch
I don’t want to misguide anybody, and I have heard plenty of stories about HF stuff, but my experience with HF stuff has been pretty good.
I have only used Harbor Freight lathes- but I only do stems on the lathe and do the occasional custom bit and stuff.
I think the HF 8x12” is a fantastic piece of machinery for $750 ( I got mine with a 25% coupon, but I see them at that price regularly now.) The 7x10” that I used before was OK, and I made plenty of stems on it, but it is almost toy like compared to the 8x12”
I do have an older HF lathe made in Taiwan that is larger, and will be bringing that in my shop later this year after I get a concrete pad poured for it. My brother used that for automotive and gunsmithing tasks with no complaints.
DocAitch
"Hettinger, if you stamp 'hand made' on a dog turd, some one will buy it."
-Charles Hollyday, pipe maker, reluctant mentor, and curmudgeon
" Never show an idiot an unfinished pipe!"- same guy
-Charles Hollyday, pipe maker, reluctant mentor, and curmudgeon
" Never show an idiot an unfinished pipe!"- same guy
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UnderShade
- Posts: 256
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Re: What lathe to get?
My little HF 10 X 18 has served me well. It's not a bad choice for the beginner, but I take Kurt's point. I've gotten plenty of sub-par tools from them.
Re: What lathe to get?
HF can be a minefield of junk with appealing prices but getting stuff from HF _can_ be worthwhile in some cases. Knowing which tools are worth the price is almost an art form. There a tons of videos about which products can potentially be a good buy. There aren't many and as always some of that will depend on your level of use, i.e. profession, hard, daily use vs occasional, moderate use.
My brother-in-law is a farmer who does the majority of his tractor and equipment repairs and maintenance himself. He swears by Snap-On tools and frequently kids me about my Craftsman mechanic tools which I use about once a month on my track car. I've used his Mac tools and they are indeed worth the money for how he uses them. They would be a waste of money for me. Plus, when I break mine I run out a get a free replacement. When he breaks his he waits on the Snap-On tools truck to come out to buy a new one.
That sort of thing has to guide any decision to go with HF stuff.
I have a small HF belt sander. It cost about half what the better brands cost. It is poorly made but it is a simple tool and it works flawlessly. If I made pipes for a living I would have bought something better but for making one or two pipes a month it is fine.
Video reviews of the HF desktop metal lathe are mixed but some users have made them work with some effort.
George
My brother-in-law is a farmer who does the majority of his tractor and equipment repairs and maintenance himself. He swears by Snap-On tools and frequently kids me about my Craftsman mechanic tools which I use about once a month on my track car. I've used his Mac tools and they are indeed worth the money for how he uses them. They would be a waste of money for me. Plus, when I break mine I run out a get a free replacement. When he breaks his he waits on the Snap-On tools truck to come out to buy a new one.
That sort of thing has to guide any decision to go with HF stuff.
I have a small HF belt sander. It cost about half what the better brands cost. It is poorly made but it is a simple tool and it works flawlessly. If I made pipes for a living I would have bought something better but for making one or two pipes a month it is fine.
Video reviews of the HF desktop metal lathe are mixed but some users have made them work with some effort.
George
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KurtHuhn
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Re: What lathe to get?
I agree with everything. 
I have an HF metal cutting bandsaw (the Milwaukee knockoff) and it has served me fine for years. I did, however, make a handful of mods to it to make it run true and be more consistent in operation. I'd hesitate to recommend it though, because out of the box it's just not that good a tool. I also have impact socket sets that work fine, socket extensions that are great, and a couple other things that work okay.
I played with the 7x10 metal lathe in the store, and found it to be an unmitigated piece of crap compared to anything else I've used. I tried to advise a couple people not to buy one, but they did, and quickly became very frustrated with it despite efforts to make it better (new gibs, DRO, new QC toolpost, new chuck, etc), and then sold them to the next unsuspecting person - at a loss.
The 8x12 I played with was a little better - but being used to things like South Bend and Atlas, I found it lacking in several areas. I assume it could be fine for small use, and this is the same basic thing that Little Machine Shop modifies and warms over for sale.
I have no experience with the 10x18 - but in that size, it's probably a clone of Delta or Jet, possibly built off the same castings. Hopefully it's better, and I defer to others with some experience. Wood lathes, however, are not quite the same beast as a metal lathe, and are much more forgiving.
But based on myt experience with HF, and the hit or miss nature of their quality, I would still never recommend them for anything where precision or dependability is required. That said, I would never ridicule anyone for buying one. We work with the funds we have, and sometimes it's necessary to opt in favor of something that costs less.
I have an HF metal cutting bandsaw (the Milwaukee knockoff) and it has served me fine for years. I did, however, make a handful of mods to it to make it run true and be more consistent in operation. I'd hesitate to recommend it though, because out of the box it's just not that good a tool. I also have impact socket sets that work fine, socket extensions that are great, and a couple other things that work okay.
I played with the 7x10 metal lathe in the store, and found it to be an unmitigated piece of crap compared to anything else I've used. I tried to advise a couple people not to buy one, but they did, and quickly became very frustrated with it despite efforts to make it better (new gibs, DRO, new QC toolpost, new chuck, etc), and then sold them to the next unsuspecting person - at a loss.
The 8x12 I played with was a little better - but being used to things like South Bend and Atlas, I found it lacking in several areas. I assume it could be fine for small use, and this is the same basic thing that Little Machine Shop modifies and warms over for sale.
I have no experience with the 10x18 - but in that size, it's probably a clone of Delta or Jet, possibly built off the same castings. Hopefully it's better, and I defer to others with some experience. Wood lathes, however, are not quite the same beast as a metal lathe, and are much more forgiving.
But based on myt experience with HF, and the hit or miss nature of their quality, I would still never recommend them for anything where precision or dependability is required. That said, I would never ridicule anyone for buying one. We work with the funds we have, and sometimes it's necessary to opt in favor of something that costs less.
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UnderShade
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Re: What lathe to get?
The 10 x 18 is a Jet clone. The tail stock has some play, but it’s manageable. I did A LOT of research before buying it. I would not buy a HF metal lathe. Too many modifications are required for it to be useful for pipe making IMO.
Re: What lathe to get?
I'm not in the market for a metal lathe yet. Still not sure I want to go that deep into what is currently just a hobby (that I probably have no talent for). For me a drill press and a sander are easy to justify because I can use them for so many other things besides making pipes. I'm not sure I can say the same about a metal lathe. If I quit making pipes it would collect dust.
Having said that, I keep my eyes peeling and if I find a real deal on a good used lathe I might buy one. I would assume that if it is in good shape I'd be able to get my money out of it if I was not using it.
I would also assume that you could not get your money back, or anywhere close, with a used HF. For that reason alone I would not go for a HF metal lathe.
My current issue is my drill press. It is literally 90 years old. And looks it. Its major limitation is adjustability. (Well, that and safety, all the moving parts and belts are exposed and right about face and hair level). It is a desktop model and I frequently find the working space too short. A good solid floor stander would solve that problem. So my next pipe making expenditure would likely be a quality drill press before I bought a lathe.
Having said that, I keep my eyes peeling and if I find a real deal on a good used lathe I might buy one. I would assume that if it is in good shape I'd be able to get my money out of it if I was not using it.
I would also assume that you could not get your money back, or anywhere close, with a used HF. For that reason alone I would not go for a HF metal lathe.
My current issue is my drill press. It is literally 90 years old. And looks it. Its major limitation is adjustability. (Well, that and safety, all the moving parts and belts are exposed and right about face and hair level). It is a desktop model and I frequently find the working space too short. A good solid floor stander would solve that problem. So my next pipe making expenditure would likely be a quality drill press before I bought a lathe.
Re: What lathe to get?
I did no modifications on my HF lathe other than adding a QCTP, but I only do stems.UnderShade wrote: ↑Wed Jan 08, 2020 4:57 pm The 10 x 18 is a Jet clone. The tail stock has some play, but it’s manageable. I did A LOT of research before buying it. I would not buy a HF metal lathe. Too many modifications are required for it to be useful for pipe making IMO.
For stems and the occasional custom bit, it is perfectly adequate.
DocAitch
"Hettinger, if you stamp 'hand made' on a dog turd, some one will buy it."
-Charles Hollyday, pipe maker, reluctant mentor, and curmudgeon
" Never show an idiot an unfinished pipe!"- same guy
-Charles Hollyday, pipe maker, reluctant mentor, and curmudgeon
" Never show an idiot an unfinished pipe!"- same guy
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UnderShade
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Re: What lathe to get?
I’m definitely not knocking it. I love my HF wood lathe. I saw a couple of videos where the reviewers mentioned that the gearing wasn’t the cleanest and the spindle having a lot of runout, but that definitely can be hit or miss (like anything at harbor freight) and not indicative of a bad design. They’re all made at the same Chinese factories, so I guess it’s just a matter of quality control. When I bought mine I knew that I was going to be using it for stummel work and stem work, and I also knew I would be dropping a lot of cash either way, so I went with grizzly because I know they have good quality control/ customer service. There are definitely better brands, but it will be reflected in the price.
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LatakiaLover
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Re: What lathe to get?
UFOs must be real. There's no other explanation for cats.
Re: What lathe to get?
Do your research, figure out what you want then when you find something, post it here for advice. Last year I purchased a 75 year old Logan 200 Metal Lathe for $600 from Craiglist. I had to drive 2 hours to pick up but it was so worth it. I work with a machinist who came over to check it out and he was amazed at the precision it still had after 75 years. There are great deals out there, just keep your eyes open.
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sandahlpipe
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Re: What lathe to get?
Just get a Precision Matthews 12x36 lathe and you’ll be a happy pipe maker the rest of your career. The rigidity makes everything much more precise than a smaller unit, and it holds a ton of shavings in the chip tray before you’ve gotta clean it out.
You can make a 7x14 work, or a 12” wood lathe, or do it all with a drill press, but your life will be happier with a giant metal lathe.
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You can make a 7x14 work, or a 12” wood lathe, or do it all with a drill press, but your life will be happier with a giant metal lathe.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Re: What lathe to get?
Just saw a video about how Dunhill pipes are made. It was interesting that the video showed them using a wood lathe. I have no idea if that is typical at Dunhill or just what they chose to show in the video.
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seamonster
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Re: What lathe to get?
do you have a link to this video? is love to see it.n80 wrote:Just saw a video about how Dunhill pipes are made. It was interesting that the video showed them using a wood lathe. I have no idea if that is typical at Dunhill or just what they chose to show in the video.
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instagram.com/seamonster_workshop/
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LatakiaLover
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Re: What lathe to get?
UFOs must be real. There's no other explanation for cats.
Re: What lathe to get?
What is your budget is first question to answer. I would recommend at least have $1000.00 to spend on a decent lathe and some tooling to get started. Never buy cheap tooling. It will always cause more heartache in the long run. Personally I use both, a Wood Lathe (Jet 1221) for all my stumles and now a Metal Lathe (Grizzly) for all my stems and metal work. I prefer a wood lathe for wood any day. The freedom and feel of hands on are just to much for me to part with. I've been turning wood for 20 years so I guess its just like a old friend that I have no choice but to defend. For anyone who says that you cannot be accurate with a good wood lathe I can only say either they don't have enough experience with one or they just more comfortable with a machine doing all the work. That being said you cannot do any precise metal work on a wood lathe. I've seen all types of jigs, cutters and adaptors that were retrofitted for some metal work on a wood lathe. Yes you can do some smaller and softer metals but anything really hard like 410 stainless you will do nothing but destroy your machine or even injure yourself especially when it comes to parting. The fact is its just not designed for such procedures. All that being said if I could only have one I would have to choose a metal lathe. Its very easy to construct a tool rest for my wood chisels.
Greatness is the closest thing to perfection. I am good, I am Humble.
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Sebastian Heck
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