So now what

[mightysmurf8201]

There's been people all over social media saying that each individual pipe will be subject to a $10k fee of some sort, but I'm not so good with lawyer talk. Anyone else have any further info/clarification on this?

[LatakiaLover]

There's been people all over social media saying...

...that flying saucers are real, storing razor blades under pyramids sharpens them with galactic energy, and the Loch Ness monster army is massing to invade New York City, too.

Welcome to 2016. The year h. Sapiens' irrational, drama-loving, checkout tabloid mentality took control of world affairs, courtesy of fuckin' social fuckin' media.

[clickklick]

I don't know that the 10k fee is correct as I have yet to see an actual statement of costs in the FDA deeming regulations, but it does state that components and parts (which pipes now fall into) are being deemed after July 31st, 2016.

So technically, to legally make pipes and sell them in the USA, you need to be registered with the FDA as a manufacturer and each SKU (pipe shape, material combination etc) will have to be submitted at whatever cost they think is necessary.

If I was doing this full time for a living I think I'd take my chances and wait till I received a cease and desist letter. But I am only a hobbyist, so I am putting things on hold until this all shakes out, as I really can't afford to be fined and risk the rest of my livelihood to my family.

I have written my congress people and now am just sulking, what else can we do?

[Sasquatch]

There's been people all over social media saying...

.. storing razor blades under pyramids sharpens them with galactic energy, .

What about turning tools? I'm all for Galactic Energy. Sure as hell don't have any of my own these days.

[LatakiaLover]

I don't know that the 10k fee is correct as I have yet to see an actual statement of costs in the FDA deeming regulations, but it does state that components and parts (which pipes now fall into) are being deemed after July 31st, 2016.

So technically, to legally make pipes and sell them in the USA, you need to be registered with the FDA as a manufacturer and each SKU (pipe shape, material combination etc) will have to be submitted at whatever cost they think is necessary.

If I was doing this full time for a living I think I'd take my chances and wait till I received a cease and desist letter. But I am only a hobbyist, so I am putting things on hold until this all shakes out, as I really can't afford to be fined and risk the rest of my livelihood to my family.

I have written my congress people and now am just sulking, what else can we do?

You are making things worse, not better, with such alarmist conclusions.

Ever seen turned wooden bowls for sale? They come in a bazillion sizes, and are sold by the bazillion. At craft fairs, roadside stands, through the mail, you name it. Along with wooden forks, spoons, cutting boards, rolling pins, and so on. There are probably a thousand craft woodturners for every pipe maker in this country. Pipe makers have a handful of shows each year that attract a few hundred people; craft wood turners have state-fair-sized events that attract thousands. The turners rent trucks to carry their merchandise to those shows; pipe makers use a briefcase.

You know who regulates that entire class of stuff? The FDA. Here's what they have to say about it (pasted from an official doc):

Food Product Contact Surfaces

In terms of sanitary design, all food contact surfaces should be:

smooth;
impervious;
free of cracks and crevices;
nonporous;
nonabsorbent;
non-contaminating;
nonreactive;
corrosion resistant;
durable and maintenance free;
nontoxic; and
cleanable.

("non toxic" got a pass because no one is dumb enough to sell rosewood salad bowls; and "cleanable" got a pass because it's a relative concept that requires clarification.)

Wood turners have their lives interfered with by the FDA exactly as often as they're interfered with by flocks of marauding penguins.

You do the math.

[Sasquatch]

Fucking penguins man.... hate those bastards..

[Sasquatch]

Actually what's great is a pile of turd-makers who can't sell their junk for the ridiculous prices they want are quitting "because of FDA stuff". So this scare might just flush the toilet, which would be great, cuz it's piling up bad.

[LatakiaLover]

Actually what's great is a pile of turd-makers who can't sell their junk for the ridiculous prices they want are quitting "because of FDA stuff". So this scare might just flush the toilet, which would be great, cuz it's piling up bad.

Now that's some serious Big Picture Analysis, right there.

It's good to see you branching out, Sas. I've been worried that Alberta's supply of errant hikers and complacent campers was running out and you'd have to move to the Internet-less NW Territories to keep from starving. Now you can get a job writing for P&T magazine and have money to buy groceries.

[clickklick]

I must be just another turd maker then.

But I'm not sure how the plate and flatware industry compares in relation to the tobacco industry as far as extent of regulation, so I can't speak to that. I just know what I've read about the new FDA tobacco deeming. People should be informed, as much as someone wants to brush it under the rug and say that we are too niche and small fry for them to care about what we do.... it would still be technically considered breaking the law.

I'm not saying panic and quit, but until things go through litigation, I'm hesitant to sell to the US market as a pipe maker.

[Sasquatch]

I must be just another turd maker then.

Why do you say that?

What I've seen is a whole gang of guys in the last... month or so... two months?.... up and quit. Just say "hell with this, there's no money in it". It comes out as "nobody wants to pay for art" or "I can't find time to put in proper hours" or whatever. But there's a HORDE of guys right now, instagrammers, facebook... who can't make a decent pipe to save their lives and can't understand why people aren't lining up to drop 350 bucks on their junk. Guy's who think "billiards are pretty easy actually". Guys who think a Devil Anse is any nosewarmer. Guys who don't know their asses from holes in the ground when it comes to pipes. But they're "in the industry".

These guys suffer under the delusion that their pipes are good, and that if something took them 20 hours, then 20 hours * 15 bucks an hour = 300.

And they can't just say "Hey, I'm not good enough at this to cut it, there's too many other guys JUST LIKE ME." They can't admit that they didn't set this thing up right somehow. But lo and behold! The FDA threatens them in some obscure way that ISN'T even law yet.. and boom, they're done, hands washed (and of course the "last chance" sale to boot. ) These are guys that in many case myself or others, sometimes many others, have tried to help physically and mentally, and it has all come to nought because they are just too fucking awesome (just ask their Aunt!).

I've backed WAYYYY off from the whole community - here too - because any time I speak I sound like a bitter old man in a young man's world. But I'll say it here - this bunch of entitled, talentless, DRIVELESS hacks who wanted to be famous can go fall on their heads!

I could be wrong, but I think George is right. I don't think this legislation is aimed at me. It's aimed at weird unregulated products out of China, and Phillip Morris wants to own them. That's all. No one gives a half a shit about a guy making pipes in his garage. I live in fucking CANADA. Canadastan. The Soviet Socialist Republic of Alberta! And when I tried to get totally, fully outright tees crossed and eyes dotted legitimate on my briar imports, pretty much the government guys said "Look, no one cares about your stupid little box of wood, okay? Go away."

So what has to happen here is guys need to shut up, keep doing what they're doing, and it'll all be just fine for Joe Pipemaker. But hopefully the turd-craze kinda dies. But I doubt that - I think all these fuckers will be back in six months after hiding their tools in the garden shed here for awhile.

[clickklick]

I hope for all our sakes you are correct.

I'll have to wait some and see. My anxiety disorder is telling me to hold off selling to the US market. Sometimes you have to listen to your gut feeling, even if it turns out to be wrong.

I made 39 pipes my first year so some would say I'm still a turd maker, although I wasn't charging more than 100$ , I still feel that stigma since I am a 'new' Pipemaker in a sea of them. I'm too new to the manufacturing part of the industry to know where this is going, but with being a pipe smoker for 13 years, if it is anything like what has happened with tobacco, we are in for a ride!

Zack H told me to worry only if smoking pipes.com acts. Probably sound advice.

But I'll wait and see how it shakes out a bit. For now my US orders are on hold.

[Sasquatch]

Whether someone is a turd-maker or not isn't relevant here - whether someone is going to put in the effort to NOT be a turd-maker... that to me makes a difference. Making crap and thinking it's gold... that's the issue here. One of the issues.

If you live outside the USA, the FDA cannot sanction or control you in any way. The worst that could happen is that a pipe would be "caught" in customs and returned to sender. You think Joe HomelandSecurityAgent has a list of things to look for in the mail? I think he does. Bugs, disease, live animals, tiger penises. Yak eyeballs and whatever else someone thinks will make their dick bigger or their hair grow back.... they have to watch for invasive species of plants AND animals, they have to watch for drugs, they have to watch for fucking wanna-be immigrants tucked inside suitcases for chrissakes. You think the top of their list is "Watch for wooden pipes like your grandpa used to smoke"

Cuz I don't think so.

[LatakiaLover]

...the government guys said "Look, no one cares about your stupid little box of wood, okay? Go away."

And that was the government's take on pipes when they---the Canadisian nanny state itself---initiated things. Do-gooders determined to Save The World's Citizens From Themselves with fantasy campaigns and laws.

In the USA's case, the FDA move was NOT their idea, but was orchestrated and paid for by Big Tobacco who wanted a de facto enforcement arm that could be used to attack competition in its own industry. The FDA is their butt bitch, nothing more.

Imagine Big Tobacco's discontent if it was to discover that their billion-dollar, paid-for lackeys were spending time chasing down a few dozen artisan pipe carvers, most of whom didn't break even, never mind made enough money to live on.

Hell, the vast majority of people in the US today have never even seen a tobacco pipe in the flesh. They're thought of---when they're thought of at all---in the same way as steam engines and top hats.

As for Sas's observation that many of the past couple years' worth of get-rich-quick "artisan carvers" are using the recent FDA flap as face-saving cover to quit---what politicians call "plausible deniability"---I don't talk to enough of those guys to have an opinion. I will say that such behavior would be completely consistent with what I know of human nature, though.

[mightysmurf8201]

I'm glad I asked this question, because, mostly, the only people I see freaking the f#ck out and packing up are people who've already been described by Todd. I can certainly understand having a lot to lose should the shit hit the fan, but in this case, I find value in taking my cues from those who are more invested in this industry than I currently am. Should the FDA find it worth their time to investigate me and type me up a personalized C&D letter, then I guess I'll act based on what I think is right for me at that particular time.

[Sasquatch]

And you can just answer the letter with "I am assured that I carve turds and not pipes, but thank you for your inquiries."

[Sasquatch]

I'll just repost this snippet from George cuz it's fucking gold:

"paid for by Big Tobacco who wanted a de facto enforcement arm that could be used to attack competition in its own industry."


Vaping cut into ciggies. Ciggies are cutting vaping out at the knees and calling it a public service. You can't make this shit up.

[pipedreamer]

When I get up off the floor and get the tears out of my eyes; I didn't know my stomach could hurt more than my arthritis, bad back, oh shit I'm an old man ! I will state that Sas, is a quality comedian and soothsayer... I'm so grateful for him and his wise, truthful, approach to the whole scene.I have been making my dog turds since I was fifteen and am pushing the shit out of seventy. I make very good Turds, that smoke flawlessly and sometimes approach pretty. I had my business license arrive in the mail just last week and it stated I was a Craft manufacturer??? I wouldn't care, but just saying, it has stated forever, well since I took out an actual license that I'm a Pipe Manufactuer! It hit me wrong. I did not petition this, Fucking City Hall, or have they done me a favor??? I have maybe four pipes left on my site and too many commissions to get to and I have branched out into more wood turning, you know bowls, vases etc. I will keep making pipes, but changed my F.B. description to Guild pipes and wood turnings. I'm not associated with the ten thousand other combinations of Guild this and that. I'm a one man shop, when I can find my tools. I did this and started an Etsy spot, due to the fact, I get poor results from my current web designer and he like many pipe artisans, charges
too much. This whole thing with the F.D.A. has had a flushing effect on the whole industry. I hate to say, being a U.S. citizen;" I hate being told who I am and what and how I do anything. I knew there was some typical Bullshit mixed in the "we want to help you" left wing greedy bastards. Yes i'm upset, but stop us? When all the apathetic sheeple get up off their asses and realize, this is going on all over The U.S. in many areas
and it's not for our good , but to control us and the flow of money maybe some people will get held accountable. It would be a sad life if all of you disappeared from mine! Some of you are brilliant! This Forum is a good thing and Fordhams' have smoked pipes since before ther was a U.S.A. So stock up on tobacco ( been saying this for at least eight yrs.) and keep making pipes, even if your box of briar has an occasional future citizen in it and stop worrying about this misguided bullshit. Remember the" Black Market" can be a friend.
John, pipe dreamer, pipe maker and now Craft Manufactuer.

P.S.
Talk about biting the hand of the product, Tobacco, that helped to form the U.S.A. not to mention the tax dollars that now have to be replaced.By whom??? You guessed it.

[clickklick]

So let's say in theory you get a cease and desist letter. Do you get fined or does the fine come only if you don't cease and desist once notified.

Cuz I hear all of you and it makes a ton of sense. I'm just not sure I can justify risking a 10k fine or whatever it may be because I want to make a pipe for someone in the states for a measly $100. But the more I sleep on it the more my feelings are changing.

[Ratimus]

We've all heard the turdmakers referred to as "all sizzle and no steak." Maybe the ones who are the most convinced of their awesomeness are the ones who don't put any effort into improving their craft and instead waste all their time sizzling as loudly as possible on Instagram etc. Since they try so hard to call attention to themselves, maybe there is a bit of paranoia that they will be singled out first. Persecutory delusions are rooted in delusions of grandeur after all; to think that they're coming after you presumes that you are someone who is worth coming after.

[sam a]

This thread makes me sad I didn't really get to hang out with toddsquatch at Chicago this year.