Weight

[NvilleDave]

Do you consider weight when deciding what shape to use on a particular piece of briar? I'm asking because I went to Uptown's Thursday--I wanted some feedback on my work--one of the things we talked about was weight.

To be honest I had never considered weight before. Then I remembered reading the article on Larry Roush in the Winter 2005 P&T magazine. In it, Larry said he tosses any block that's too heavy.

When I got home I sorted through my briar out of curiosity--there's a noticeable difference between blocks of comparable size--pieces that are from the same supplier. The stuff I got from Matzhold is VERY heavy. Then I weighed some of my pipes and compared them to pipes of similar size and shape listed on Pipedo--mine are heavier by 10 to 20 grams or more. :think:

What could I be doing wrong? Anyone have any thoughts? Mark? Todd? Jack?

[RadDavis]

Hi Dave,

After reading your post, I re-read the article on Larry, and I didn't see anything about him tossing blocks that were too heavy. I really don't know how one would determine that a particular block was too heavy.

IMO, the only thing that will reduce the weight of a pipe is to take off more wood. Look at where the stummel has the most wood. Then see if you can strip that area of more wood and maintain your shape. Strip the shape to its bare bones. After a while, this sort of becomes second nature as you begin to see what needs to be removed very early in the process without having to study it too hard.

Usually, the areas around the middle of the bowl and the shank/bowl join are where more wood needs to be taken off (at least for me). Sometimes, the shank can be thinner. Also, look at the stummel from above and make sure that it isn't oval shaped from side to side (unless your doing that on purpose for a particular shape). In other words, too much wood on the left & right sides of the bowl.

Just take off as much wood as possible while still maintaining your shape. There's no other way to do it. I honestly don't think that you've gotten hold of a batch of heavy wood. Unless it's wet, but you would know that as soon as you cut it or drilled it.

Hope this helps,

Rad

[bscofield]

I agree with Rad in the shaping aspect. I do not think, however, that I'd toss a block for being too heavy. There's a fine market out there for pipes that aren't "clenchers." I think that engineering (drilling that is) and shape come first. Then I work on weight. But it's not a main guideline for me. Either a pipe was made meaty on purpose and never intended to be a lite clencher or it was made smaller/thinner. I make more changes because of symmetry than I do weight.

Don't get me wrong, I think it *should* be considered when the pipe was designed with it in mind. Does that make sense? If I was setting out to make a nice lovat clencher then weight would certainly be an issue. But if I was going to make a Oom Paul then it would not. Those are two opposite sides of the spectrum but I think you see what I mean. Most my stuff falls in between those two areas where I'm mostly concerned that the symmetry and look turns out the way I had planned.

Just my $0.02.

And incidently, it's very common to have undrilled blocks that weigh in at drasticaly different weights. It's just the nature of the beast. I have not foudn this to be indicative of bad drying/boiling tho. I wouldn't be worried about the raw blocks.

[RadDavis]

I agree with Rad in the shaping aspect. I do not think, however, that I'd toss a block for being too heavy.

Ben, your statement suggests that I advocate tossing blocks if they're too heavy.

Is that what you thought I said?

Rad

[NvilleDave]

I was sure it was that article where I read about weight. I'm going to have to go back and figure out where I read it. (Read below--it's a quote from Jody Davis' website)

Anyway, I don't want to give the impression they felt my pipes were boat anchors. They seemed genuinely impressed however, I asked them for input so we talked about weight (he's a clencher) and thinning out my stems. His point was new pipe smokers usually hold the pipe, so a comfortable "feel" is important. But the smokers that have done it for awhile are usually clenchers (that was his opinion) so weight and stem comfort are important factors when customers consider new pipes. I'm really glad I went and talk to them...

Rad, when you say bare bones what thickness do you think is minimum?

[bscofield]

I agree with Rad in the shaping aspect. I do not think, however, that I'd toss a block for being too heavy.

Ben, your statement suggests that I advocate tossing blocks if they're too heavy.

Is that what you thought I said?

Rad

Oops... not what meant. I just didn't seperate my thoughts well. I agree with what you said about how to trim weight.

I disagree with the thought (whoever's it was) of tossing blocks because of weight.

[RadDavis]

Rad, when you say bare bones what thickness do you think is minimum?

I don't know.

I just go by feel as I'm shaping the pipe. I keep putting my finger in the bowl and feeling the thickness of the wood at the botom and around the sides at the bottom. I always want to leave plenty of wood there. Maybe 1/4"? Most burnouts tend to occur nearer the bottom of the bowl than the top, so I want to leave enough wood there to prevent that. I think the top part of the bowl can be safely thinner than that since not as much heat is generated during the first half of the smoke.

When I said "bare bones" I was basically talking about the shape rather than trying to reach a minimum thickness anywhere. Take off all of the wood possible, and still maintain an elegant shape with plenty of meat on the bottom. If that makes any sense at all.

The more pipes you carve, the more sense it will make.

Rad

[ToddJohnson]

Weight, schmeight. I suppose it's important to certain collectors, but such collectors usually prefer small pipes. Anybody that claims to throw out raw blocks based on weight is either lying, unacquainted with the properties of briar, or "simple in mind" as my grandfather would tactfully put it. You can take a so-called "heavy" block, shape it, drill it, and set it in direct sunlight for a week. At the end of a week or so its weight will have decreased substantively. It's a wonderful marketing ploy to say something like "I throw out every block of wood that wasn't harvested under a full moon on the ides of march during an even year," but nobody that's trying to derive a living from this craft actually does that. Exceptions might include Bo and Jess, but they're not putting wood in the furnace. They're just selling what's left after they've cherry-picked it.

What's interesting to me is that I'm having just the opposite problem. I like to make pipes that balance and sit on a very small foot. The last batch of wood I got from Mimmo is so light that I'm having a difficult time getting pipes to balance without putting them at an extreme forward angle. I could actually do with a bit of heavier wood.

If the commentary on your pipes was about "clunkiness" irrespective of the weight of the actual block, this is a different thing entirely. Everyone who's ever made pipes begins by being cautious about how much wood to remove. As you make more pipes however, you realize that settling for a clean well grained pipe in an okay shape is the most direct route to mediocrity. You'll ruin some pipes and kick yourself after the fact, but the only way to create shapes like Tom or Kent or Teddy is to push the envelope until you're teetering right on the very edge but don't go over. That's the best and only advice I know to give.

Todd

[JHowell]

What Todd says is true. One of the best pieces of advice I got was at my first Chicago show, where Tom Eltang said that what I had to do was to have the courage to keep cutting even when the pipe had a flawless surface. Also, Kent Rasmussen said more or less the same thing, commenting that he liked his shapes to look "cut to the bone." There are plenty of pipes where the shape is *determined* by wood that is extraneous to actually containing the burning tobacco and conveying the smoke to one's mouth. A volcano, for instance, with an example of the opposite being perhaps a billiard. Nevertheless, the "cut to the bone" look counts for a lot, IMO.

Weight is very important to some buyers. I know a couple who won't buy a pipe that weighs more than 50 grams. Others (who like larger pipes) set the line at 60 grams. Most people who pick up a pipe seem impressed by one that feels light in the hand, but a few don't seem to care at all. It's not hard to make a light pipe; just make it tiny. Making a pipe that is light for its size is a bit more work.

While I wouldn't take light weight as my primary concern, I *have* found that removing wood in an effort to get the weight down almost always results in a better shape. When you honestly can't take off any more wood because it would hurt the shape or make the bowl too thin, you've done your best. The artistic ideal might perhaps be to make the pipe that appears in your imagination, and when it perfectly matches your image, it weighs what it weighs. However, many of us lack that kind of artistic discipline, and imposing some external controls can be a shove in the right direction.

Regarding the weight of blocks, my impression is that some do weigh more than others, even fully dried. I have heard buyers say that they wanted pipes made from light briar, as such pipes are supposed to be superior. However, I've not found that to be noticible in my own pipes, and I tend to regard it as marketing, of a piece with the "I don't use any briar less than 5/10/20 years old" line. My view is that makes say that because they *have* wood that old. Everybody makes pipes with the wood they have, because the alternative is not to make pipes. To bring this full circle, Tom wasn't talking about weight when he said to keep cutting, he was talking about shape.

[ScoJo]

Anybody that claims to throw out raw blocks based on weight is either lying, unacquainted with the properties of briar, or "simple in mind" as my grandfather would tactfully put it.

From Jody Davis' website:

"I start by holding the block and feeling its weight in my hand. After you have held enough blocks of briar, you develop a sensitivity for this. If it is to heavy, I discard it."

So which is Jody?

8O

[Tyler]

Now that's funny!

Tyler <calling Jody right now to say Todd said mean things about him.>

[ToddJohnson]

Anybody that claims to throw out raw blocks based on weight is either lying, unacquainted with the properties of briar, or "simple in mind" as my grandfather would tactfully put it.

From Jody Davis' website:

"I start by holding the block and feeling its weight in my hand. After you have held enough blocks of briar, you develop a sensitivity for this. If it is to heavy, I discard it."

So which is Jody?

8O

Well, Jody and I are very good friends, so I know he is neither "simple in mind" nor unacquainted with briar. I tell ya what though, ScoJo. When I go visit Jody on the 11th I will collect every single block in the "discard pile" and send it to you FedEx Overnight at my expense. I know Jody to be an honest person, so perhaps what's meant here is that he puts it aside until it's drier, or sells it to budding carvers on pipemaking forums. Jody is marketed well, and for that he is to be applauded.

Todd

[NvilleDave]

Now that's funny!

Tyler <calling Jody right now to say Todd said mean things about him.>

That's where I read it at.

[ScoJo]

Todd,

Please understand I meant no disrespect. I was just reading through Jody's site and I found that comment and it reminded me of this thread.





...I'll take the wood, though.



-Scott

[bscofield]

...I'll take the wood, though.



-Scott

Don't forget your old buddy Ben when you get that wood!

[NvilleDave]

...I'll take the wood, though.



-Scott

This must be how George Costanza felt when he wanted Elaine to know who paid for "the big salad".

If you're not a Sienfeld fan you won't understand--enjoy the wood if Todd follows through.

[ScoJo]

I watched Seinfeld occasionally, but I guess I still don't get the meaning of that comment.

Todd, if you still read here, what was the outcome of your discussion with Jody on this topic?

[jeff]

Scott,

I believe that Todd answered your question already. There was a *bit* of sarcasm implied.

The truth of the matter is that professional pipemakers do not just pitch blocks. Barring major splits or pits, grainless faces, and/or horrible stenches all blocks will eventually be used or sold. Given the quality of the briar that most high-graders are using, there should be little reason to pitch anything. I know Jody well, and he does not "discard" blocks without cutting them open. What he does do is set them aside to air-cure for a year or so to trim off some of the weight. I do the same thing. One of my old supplier's blocks tended to be fairly inconsistent in weight. One batch would be light and another heavy. Every time I get briar in the door I sort and mark them all for origin and date. I then determine whether or not some would benefit from additional aging time and set them aside. They sit and wait until they are ready. However, at the rate I am currently making pipes, who knows how long they'll sit around before becoming pipes.

Jeff

[ScoJo]

Oh, I know sarcasm when I see it.

Point is, I was wondering if Todd had asked Jody specifically about the comment on his website:

"I start by holding the block and feeling its weight in my hand. After you have held enough blocks of briar, you develop a sensitivity for this. If it is to heavy, I discard it."

You see, Jody goes on in this section to talk about what he pays for wood and how many blocks he goes through to make a particular pipe. To me, this looks at least in part like justification for the prices he charges:

"I'm always searching for the best briar that I can get, at any price. I usually pay between forty to seventy dollars a block. The amount of blocks used to get one pipe depends on the shape and the finish. If I am doing a special order for a classic shape, there isn't much room to change the shape to work around flaws in the wood (every block of briar has flaws), so it may take more blocks. For a "Cardinal" in a classic shape, I average about ten blocks. That's not to say that some of them can't be made into" Bishops" or "Friars" but many of them will be discarded."

Now I wonder even more about what is meant by "discarded". Are these really thrown out and should a potential buyer consider these sunk costs on Jody's part and figure that into what he should pay for one of Jody's pipes?

I'm not attacking Jody here at all, I'm just asking a question. Truth is, I will never pay the prices Jody charges for a pipe anyway, so I'm not really his target audience. As a result I'm not saying Jody should address my questions anyway since I am not a potential customer. I'm just trying to initiate thoughtful discussion, that's all.

[jeff]

Scott,

I see what you're getting at. Maybe this will shed some light on the subject. Classical shapes are more difficult to make, at least along the lines of this discussion. This is because Jody turns them on the lathe. Turning pipes, while very accurate, gives very little wiggle room for flaws. You can't just alter the shape around the flaw because then you no longer have the classical pipe that you were after. So, when he says he goes through 10 blocks for a cardinal, that means that on average he turns 10 blocks before hitting one that is a cardinal grade. The other 9, as he said, can be made into lower grades. The blocks that he mentions discarding is only done so because irredeemable flaws have appeared.

Yes, these blocks are sunk costs. I'm not sure what Jody does, but Tonnie keeps a box of "discarded" stummels that he may try to redeem in the future. If I remember, I'll ask Jody when I talk to him next. It is likely, though, that he is indeed chucking these blocks because they are useless for the quality of pipe that he produces. Every pipemaker has discards, it's just part of the business. It is just that for pipemakers like Jody who are dropping $40-70/block that there is a little more to lose. As to the pricing, of course this might be put up as a reason for high prices. The fact is, though, that if a bad pipemaker was discarding wood like this that he simply couldn't charge the prices that Jody charges. The point is that the beauty and quality of the end product justifies the price. Discarding blocks is less important for statistical than it is for qualitative purposes.

Don't worry, I don't think you're attacking anyone. :thumb: To be clear, I'm not jumping to his defense as much as I am trying to give some answers to your question. I hope it helped. Or perhaps my meandering writing style has further obfuscated the matter.

Best,

Jeff