PITH 2016!!!!!!

[kamkiel]

I have been looking at tapered reamers online in China. They have two basic tapers: 1/20 and 1/50 (gradients). From what I was reading in one of the other threads 1/20 (~5○ if I remember correctly) would be too wide of an angle, so I would go with 1/50. An 8mm tapered bit is the says the diameter is 8mm in the middle of the bit with (for example) a 7mm diamter around the tip and 9mm diameter at the end. I just want to verify, I should buy one with a tip diameter of 8mm if I want around that size of a mortise, right? Then find some tubing that would fit the outside diameter of my drilled mortise?

I am going to try this first if you guys think it sounds right. Later I will see if I can make my own mm(military mount) tool.

If I cant get any of these to work right, I'll just go the Alden route and start removing the stamp markings off of other people's mm pipes

Thanks,
Kiel

7mm at the tip and 9mm at the "end" over what distance? You need to know that so you can calculate the true angle. Perhaps the angle is stated in the description of the tool?
If the reamer you describe works out to be the correct one then drill the mortise first with a 7mm straight bit then follow it up (carefully!) with the tapered reamer. Leave as much meat as you can inre the shank diameter to reduce the possibility of splitting when reaming, then turn to final size.
Just to be clear, you do realize that the metal shank cap is for reinforcement of the joint? The taper is in the wood. If your shank diameter is big enough you can make a sleeve out of just about any material you want, exotic wood, acrylic, horn, etc. Whatever the material, its primary function is to protect the joint from the wedge forces of the tapered stem.

The 7mm to 9mm was referring to the 1/50 tapered reamer. Just to keep this simple (for me) that means for every 50mm on the x-axis it would go up 1mm on the y-axis, right? If thats the case then it should be a 100mm reamer. I looked at a gradient to degree chart and that would put the half angle of the taper at over 1°( 1 ° is a 1/57.29 gradient) , so a total angle of under 3°. Is this a suitable angle for a military mount?

Thanks,
Kiel

[oklahoma red]

Should work fine in my thinking. Good luck with it.

[seamonster]

Maybe you guys can offer a little guidance?
I'm just dipping my toe into freehand drilling, and military mount at the sr ame time,
I've practiced a couple, and have run into a problem.
I'm not sure whether to drill the draught hole or the mortise first. Normally with a bent shank I would
drill the draught first, and the little notch would fall in the mortise where it may,
but it seems with military mount (brass ring version) you wouldn't want the little notch in the thin briar layer?
But if I drill the mortise first, I lose my orientation marks, and it's difficult to drill the draught hole accurately.
Is it all in the planning stages? making sure the axis for my mortise and draught hole are similar, so as not to have a notch?
Seems harder to plan for with the shape first?

Any advice?

Thanks!
Jeremy.

[seamonster]

Maybe you guys can offer a little guidance?
I'm just dipping my toe into freehand drilling, and military mount at the sr ame time,
I've practiced a couple, and have run into a problem.
I'm not sure whether to drill the draught hole or the mortise first. Normally with a bent shank I would
drill the draught first, and the little notch would fall in the mortise where it may,
but it seems with military mount (brass ring version) you wouldn't want the little notch in the thin briar layer?
But if I drill the mortise first, I lose my orientation marks, and it's difficult to drill the draught hole accurately.
Is it all in the planning stages? making sure the axis for my mortise and draught hole are similar, so as not to have a notch?
Seems harder to plan for with the shape first?

Any advice?

Thanks!
Jeremy.

Okay, so I more or less answered my own question, (learn by trying...) but I'm still asking for guidance. I successfully drilled a tapered mortise after the draught hole. This seemed to work, although the axis difference was small. I was also able to drill for and glue in a metal ring (I used stainless steel, because I like the color better... but it seems so much harder, and retains hear longer than brass?) with only a small crack in the interior briar ring....

Second question: I'm using an end mill to drill my chamber, until I can get a spoon bit. The hole is rough and chewed looking. Is this something that will resolve with practice, or a result of using the wrong bit? Will a spoon bit track more smoothly? I drilled two pilots, first 5/16 then half inch, then a 3/4 final bit. Should I keep increasing my pilots to closer to final size? or just wait until I can get a spoon?

I appreciate any input.
Jeremy.

Maybe you guys can offer a little guidance?
I'm just dipping my toe into freehand drilling, and military mount at the sr ame time,
I've practiced a couple, and have run into a problem.
I'm not sure whether to drill the draught hole or the mortise first. Normally with a bent shank I would
drill the draught first, and the little notch would fall in the mortise where it may,
but it seems with military mount (brass ring version) you wouldn't want the little notch in the thin briar layer?
But if I drill the mortise first, I lose my orientation marks, and it's difficult to drill the draught hole accurately.
Is it all in the planning stages? making sure the axis for my mortise and draught hole are similar, so as not to have a notch?
Seems harder to plan for with the shape first?

Any advice?

Thanks!
Jeremy.

sent from my blah-dee-blah, using hooty-hoo

[kamkiel]

Should work fine in my thinking. Good luck with it.

Thanks! I'll give it a try

Kiel

[oklahoma red]

Maybe you guys can offer a little guidance?
I'm just dipping my toe into freehand drilling, and military mount at the sr ame time,
I've practiced a couple, and have run into a problem.
I'm not sure whether to drill the draught hole or the mortise first. Normally with a bent shank I would
drill the draught first, and the little notch would fall in the mortise where it may,
but it seems with military mount (brass ring version) you wouldn't want the little notch in the thin briar layer?
But if I drill the mortise first, I lose my orientation marks, and it's difficult to drill the draught hole accurately.
Is it all in the planning stages? making sure the axis for my mortise and draught hole are similar, so as not to have a notch?
Seems harder to plan for with the shape first?

Any advice?

Thanks!
Jeremy.

Okay, so I more or less answered my own question, (learn by trying...) but I'm still asking for guidance. I successfully drilled a tapered mortise after the draught hole. This seemed to work, although the axis difference was small. I was also able to drill for and glue in a metal ring (I used stainless steel, because I like the color better... but it seems so much harder, and retains hear longer than brass?) with only a small crack in the interior briar ring....

Second question: I'm using an end mill to drill my chamber, until I can get a spoon bit. The hole is rough and chewed looking. Is this something that will resolve with practice, or a result of using the wrong bit? Will a spoon bit track more smoothly? I drilled two pilots, first 5/16 then half inch, then a 3/4 final bit. Should I keep increasing my pilots to closer to final size? or just wait until I can get a spoon?

I appreciate any input.
Jeremy.

Maybe you guys can offer a little guidance?
I'm just dipping my toe into freehand drilling, and military mount at the sr ame time,
I've practiced a couple, and have run into a problem.
I'm not sure whether to drill the draught hole or the mortise first. Normally with a bent shank I would
drill the draught first, and the little notch would fall in the mortise where it may,
but it seems with military mount (brass ring version) you wouldn't want the little notch in the thin briar layer?
But if I drill the mortise first, I lose my orientation marks, and it's difficult to drill the draught hole accurately.
Is it all in the planning stages? making sure the axis for my mortise and draught hole are similar, so as not to have a notch?
Seems harder to plan for with the shape first?

Any advice?

Thanks!
Jeremy.

sent from my blah-dee-blah, using hooty-hoo

If I understand you correctly you are using an end mill (guessing ball nose) to freehand drill the chamber. In my opinion, not a good choice as they can grab and do some damage to you. Spoon bits are glorified reamers. The pilot bits are normally twist drills that are modified by grinding down the sharp corners and blunting the nose to keep them from grabbing. You have to be careful in choosing the pilot bit's diameter and its stopping point in the bottom of the chamber or else you'll wind up with a shoulder in the bottom because the pilot went too deep in relation to the geometry of the spoon bit's nose. A rounded bull nose shape is a little more forgiving (in terms of the pilot bit) than a parabolic shape. My advice is to be safe and save your nickels and dimes (and dollars) for a quality spoon bit (s). I've seen videos of people doing crazy things freehand drilling at high speeds with modified, flat wood bits. No thanks. I value my appendages.

[seamonster]

If I understand you correctly you are using an end mill (guessing ball nose) to freehand drill the chamber. In my opinion, not a good choice as they can grab and do some damage to you. Spoon bits are glorified reamers. The pilot bits are normally twist drills that are modified by grinding down the sharp corners and blunting the nose to keep them from grabbing. You have to be careful in choosing the pilot bit's diameter and its stopping point in the bottom of the chamber or else you'll wind up with a shoulder in the bottom because the pilot went too deep in relation to the geometry of the spoon bit's nose. A rounded bull nose shape is a little more forgiving (in terms of the pilot bit) than a parabolic shape. My advice is to be safe and save your nickels and dimes (and dollars) for a quality spoon bit (s). I've seen videos of people doing crazy things freehand drilling at high speeds with modified, flat wood bits. No thanks. I value my appendages.

Yup, that's what I'm trying to do. And I figured the best advice was to wait for a spoon bit. Thanks, Red. I value my fingers, too.....

[oklahoma red]

If I understand you correctly you are using an end mill (guessing ball nose) to freehand drill the chamber. In my opinion, not a good choice as they can grab and do some damage to you. Spoon bits are glorified reamers. The pilot bits are normally twist drills that are modified by grinding down the sharp corners and blunting the nose to keep them from grabbing. You have to be careful in choosing the pilot bit's diameter and its stopping point in the bottom of the chamber or else you'll wind up with a shoulder in the bottom because the pilot went too deep in relation to the geometry of the spoon bit's nose. A rounded bull nose shape is a little more forgiving (in terms of the pilot bit) than a parabolic shape. My advice is to be safe and save your nickels and dimes (and dollars) for a quality spoon bit (s). I've seen videos of people doing crazy things freehand drilling at high speeds with modified, flat wood bits. No thanks. I value my appendages.

Yup, that's what I'm trying to do. And I figured the best advice was to wait for a spoon bit. Thanks, Red. I value my fingers, too.....

Jeremy,
FYI, check crperkins on Instagram. He is supposedly a machinist of sorts and is starting to make spoon bits. They appear to be clones of a bit shown here on the forum by a guy in Greece. I think Steve Norse is selling the Greek's version. They are characterized by the divot near the nose. Perkins is heat treating his to a higher value on the Rockwell scale and I think he may be offering them with a titanium nitride coating. I believe there is a kick-start effort of some kind going on and some savings may be had.

[Ratimus]

If you are brave enough to attempt freehand drilling with an end mill, you're more than brave enough to attempt making your own spoon bits. I've made two so far and they are pretty good if I do say so myself. If you don't have a metal lathe (I only have a puny little Taig) you could probably use an angle grinder to shape the profile while the the bar stock spins in your chuck, then use said angle grinder to remove material from the flat face. If you're on Instagram, my name is @r2pipes; I've got pics and a detailed description on there.

[seamonster]

If you are brave enough to attempt freehand drilling with an end mill, you're more than brave enough to attempt making your own spoon bits. I've made two so far and they are pretty good if I do say so myself. If you don't have a metal lathe (I only have a puny little Taig) you could probably use an angle grinder to shape the profile while the the bar stock spins in your chuck, then use said angle grinder to remove material from the flat face. If you're on Instagram, my name is @r2pipes; I've got pics and a detailed description on there.

Ryan,

Brave is highly subjective..... (I found great irony in your tag line about the stupidness in people's heads.... )

I thought about making my own bit. I do have a metal lathe, it's new to me, and I haven't cut any actual metal on it yet.... definitely something I will learn. Your description of making the tool seems relatively straight forward... What type of steel did you use? I'm assuming you didn't do any hardening?

Hmmmmm.....

Buy something for serious bucks, I know will work vs. much less bucks, and heapload learning curve and maaaaaaaaaaybe work?


jeremy.

[Ratimus]

Well, when I said "brave" I was trying to be nice.

I jumped in with almost no metal lathe experience and didn't have any trouble with it
The steel was just cold rolled 4140. $3 a foot @ 7/8 diameter (go bigger than you think you'll need to allow for truing it up). Easy enough to machine, but I haven't had any problems maintaining sharpness either.

[calsbeek]

I'm beginning to think that I don't know what a military mount is.

does it have a tenon at all? Or is it just a tapered rod that fits into a shank that has metal reinforcement?
and if the latter, does it need the brass ring inside the shank as well as the cap outside? just one?
can someone clarify EXACTLY what we're making here?

and I'm super sorry for such a naive start to this PITH

[Rodneywt1180b]

Calsbeek I'm not sure of the exact definition other than it's a tapered joint kind of like a Morse Taper but for pipes. There's no shoulder at the joint like there is for typical pipe mortise and tenon joints. You don't want the tapered tenon bottoming out in the mortise either. As far as reinforcement I think either the metal ring or the end cap of a harder, non-splitting material is sufficient, you don't need both. I think for the metal ring I would install the metal ring then drill the mortise. That should prevent problems with a thin wall and splitting when installing the ring.
I'm guessing every manufacturer that ever made one, maybe every pipemaker? had their own taper that they used but somewhere around 3* total taper angle seems to be about right.
I'm thinking it's a case of easier done than said. It shouldn't be difficult to put together a workable tapered bit for drilling the mortise. I think once you dive in you'll find it's not that hard to pull off a workable (if not completely perfect) military mount. I think it may be more forgiving in some ways than the typical mortise and tenon most pipes use. The harder part will be to make the whole package look good. It won't have a nice smooth flow from the shank to the stem like you can get with the more common mortise and tenon joint.
My biggest question is: What Diameter Is Good?
I'm currently thinking somewhere around 3/8 to 7/16" but it's very possible I'm completely off base too.
Rodney

[smokindawg]

Ok, I admit I haven't worked on a pipe in quite some time. (Too many reasons to explain) I even quit smoking a pipe. But, I've found myself starting to pick the pipe back up and even picked up something in the scrap/parts pipe bin last night and started working on it.

Anyway, in searching information for that I found this post. Am I too late to get in on this one? I'd like to challenge myself while getting back into pipe making and think this may be the way. I only hope I'm not jumping in the deep end with something I can't do.

Anyway, can I join? What are the rules other than military mount. What is the time line with deadline, July?

[mightysmurf8201]

Ok, I admit I haven't worked on a pipe in quite some time. (Too many reasons to explain) I even quit smoking a pipe. But, I've found myself starting to pick the pipe back up and even picked up something in the scrap/parts pipe bin last night and started working on it.

Anyway, in searching information for that I found this post. Am I too late to get in on this one? I'd like to challenge myself while getting back into pipe making and think this may be the way. I only hope I'm not jumping in the deep end with something I can't do.

Anyway, can I join? What are the rules other than military mount. What is the time line with deadline, July?

Good to hear from you, Steve. You are welcome to join. I'll add your name. The only requirement is that it have a military mount, other than that, have fun with it! I don't think we've formally agreed on deadline yet, but if no one has any objections, we'll go with end of July.

[smokindawg]

I thank you. It's been a while since I did any pipe work at all. Every time I'm in the shop working on jaws or anything else I look around and see all my supplies. Makes me think, I ought to sell it. Then I think about how much I enjoyed doing pipe work and making pipes and just can't bring myself to do it.

A Military Mount isn't something I've done or even thought of doing before so it may prove a bit fun. I did notice a reamer in the tool box that I picked up somewhere and I think it will work for this project. At least that's what I'm telling myself.

I'll be sure to post more once I decide what shape I want to make. I'm thinking of something a bit different.

End of July sounds good to me.

[seamonster]

Okay, here's a question: why brass?
I've been looking at metal hardness tables, and its on the middle-ish side. I bought a stainless steel tube, just because I prefer the 'silver' color, to the 'gold', and its worked just fine.... BUT, it wreaked havoc on my sanding disc, and it took forever to cool down, so, in turn, it took forever to grind flush.

so, how about aluminum? much softer, will grind down like cake, but will I be able to make a cutting tool out of it in the same way? will it be tough enough to cut the briar? hold any kind of sharpness? I imagine it will be rigid enough to sueeve the purpose of mortise reinforcement, right? some folks use acrylic? Is there another 'silver' metal better than aluminum?
Is there a reason that brass seems to be the standard?

Thanks everyone, I've been really excited about learning this, it seems to open up a lot of possibilities....
And thanks for any info.

cheers,
Jeremy.

sent from my blah-dee-blah, using hooty-hoo

[N.Burnsworth]

Hi Jeremy,
I think that brass is the standard because the the durability, workability, and resemblance of it being gold, a desirable precious metal. SS is definitely a bear to work with because of its hardness, but is doable. Aluminum seems to be great for some applications for many reasons. It is ultra light weight, cand hold a high sheen polish, and is easy to work with. I'm not sure exactly what grade would be the best to use, I would guess aerospace quality. I don't think it will hold up well being used to cut the ring groove for the inlay, so you would want a brass or stronger tubing of the same size to use to cut that. I'd almost recomend going with a slightly thicker wall of aluminum tubing, but you would have to make a cutter the same size as well.

[seamonster]

Hi Jeremy,
Aluminum seems to be great for some applications for many reasons. It is ultra light weight, cand hold a high sheen polish, and is easy to work with. I'm not sure exactly what grade would be the best to use, I would guess aerospace quality. I don't think it will hold up well being used to cut the ring groove for the inlay, so you would want a brass or stronger tubing of the same size to use to cut that.

Thanks for that, Nick. I'm on the look out for some higher grade aluminum,
and brass tubing to match. It's amazing the differences in 5/8 OD tubing...
I wonder what the tolerance would be for difference between cutting tool and actual ring.

[oklahoma red]

Adding to what Nicholas said,
One of the reasons brass is the metal of choice is that it is hard enough that one can cut teeth in the end and have them hold up long enough to get the groove cut. The groove needs to be cut slowly to keep the heat down. Remember that the tube needs to be removed after cutting the groove in order to apply epoxy to hold it back in place. If things get to hot in the cutting process there may be issues in getting the ring back in place after the wood and metal have cooled. Or, conversely, the ring may just fall into place and you'll wind up with gaposis. Due to manufacturing tolerances in the process of making the tubing, variations between lots and variations between manufacturers I think you'll open a can of worms trying cut with one tube and then try to install something else that was not used to cut. The planets may align once but can you repeat it?
I don't have any tables of hardness data at my fingertips but most likely there are grades of aluminum that are hard enough to do the job.
As Premal is fond of saying: "TIAFO".