The current state of this forum

[PremalChheda]

Just a thought.

Guidance and direction may be more important than giving detailed answers on procedures for making pipes. Of course in a non-threatening tone.

Do you really want to have detailed information (that was developed over hundreds of hours of trial & error and experimentation, or that may have been shared with you in confidence) posted publicly on the world wide web?

I have posted too much details on a few things, and given information freely to people I do not know well, and I now am a little more careful to consider the wisdom of guidance instead of detailed answers to those that I do not know well, or those that may not have the best of intentions. I am very willing to help all, but I have become a little more selective with the details.

[Sasquatch]

One thing I remember is that a really good, truthful, detail-filled answer to a brand new pipe maker is usually pretty useless. I got all sorts of advice from big name pipe makers that I could JUST barely understand and just barely use. It was good advice, just, it took me 50 pipes to understand it. So there's something to what Premal is saying. "Try it and find out" shouldn't be the daily refrain, but something along that line isn't inappropriate - guidance and ideas.

[PremalChheda]

One thing I remember is that a really good, truthful, detail-filled answer to a brand new pipe maker is usually pretty useless. I got all sorts of advice from big name pipe makers that I could JUST barely understand and just barely use. It was good advice, just, it took me 50 pipes to understand it. So there's something to what Premal is saying. "Try it and find out" shouldn't be the daily refrain, but something along that line isn't inappropriate - guidance and ideas.

The person that mentored me did not give me a straight answer 99% of the time. He pointed me in a direction or many directions. Only after I spent hours trying and failing did he give me additional information that got me closer. It was rare for him to give me the exact solution upfront. And he knew me very well.

[sandahlpipe]

The person that mentored me did not give me a straight answer 99% of the time. He pointed me in a direction or many directions. Only after I spent hours trying and failing did he give me additional information that got me closer. It was rare for him to give me the exact solution upfront. And he knew me very well.

This. It is very frustrating for the student to have to figure out the answer on your own, but if you didn't work for it, you won't appreciate it.

On a related tangent, some of my best success stories personally have been a result of trying to prove the person wrong who told me I couldn't do it. I came into the German school system and walked into my first day of French class without having had a single lesson and it was second year French. The teacher pulled me aside and told me it was hopeless. By the end of the school year, I'd worked hard and gotten a passing grade in second year French.

It may seem helpful to give a full, detailed answer and to work out the problems for the student, but sometimes experience is the best teacher, and sometimes "Your work sucks" is the best motivator. Unfortunately, if you say the latter on a forum (or worse yet--social media), you come across like a dickhead.

[mightysmurf8201]

One thing I remember is that a really good, truthful, detail-filled answer to a brand new pipe maker is usually pretty useless. I got all sorts of advice from big name pipe makers that I could JUST barely understand and just barely use. It was good advice, just, it took me 50 pipes to understand it. So there's something to what Premal is saying. "Try it and find out" shouldn't be the daily refrain, but something along that line isn't inappropriate - guidance and ideas.

I agree with this, but here is the problem that I see, and I pointed this out on chat the other night. There are too few people nowadays who have the kind of humility to take this kind of direction and make something out of it. So if we go this route, and fail to attract the next generation of pipemakers, does the problem then lie with us, or them?

[PremalChheda]

One thing I remember is that a really good, truthful, detail-filled answer to a brand new pipe maker is usually pretty useless. I got all sorts of advice from big name pipe makers that I could JUST barely understand and just barely use. It was good advice, just, it took me 50 pipes to understand it. So there's something to what Premal is saying. "Try it and find out" shouldn't be the daily refrain, but something along that line isn't inappropriate - guidance and ideas.

I agree with this, but here is the problem that I see, and I pointed this out on chat the other night. There are too few people nowadays who have the kind of humility to take this kind of direction and make something out of it. So if we go this route, and fail to attract the next generation of pipemakers, does the problem then lie with us, or them?

There are plenty of new pipe makers that get replenished that work hard at figuring things out and seeking proper guidance. The ones that just want answers handed to them are not the type of pipe makers I want to help.

The problem lies with them.

[sandahlpipe]

One thing I remember is that a really good, truthful, detail-filled answer to a brand new pipe maker is usually pretty useless. I got all sorts of advice from big name pipe makers that I could JUST barely understand and just barely use. It was good advice, just, it took me 50 pipes to understand it. So there's something to what Premal is saying. "Try it and find out" shouldn't be the daily refrain, but something along that line isn't inappropriate - guidance and ideas.

I agree with this, but here is the problem that I see, and I pointed this out on chat the other night. There are too few people nowadays who have the kind of humility to take this kind of direction and make something out of it. So if we go this route, and fail to attract the next generation of pipemakers, does the problem then lie with us, or them?

The kind of people you have to hold their hands every step of the way aren't the kind that will ever achieve greatness. Those who have self-motivation need direction, not hand-holding. Catering to what they may perceive as a need (should they perceive that they need coddling and unnecessarily detailed instructions) may end up serving to delay their success as a consequence.

I guess Premal just said the same thing, though.

[PremalChheda]

One thing I remember is that a really good, truthful, detail-filled answer to a brand new pipe maker is usually pretty useless. I got all sorts of advice from big name pipe makers that I could JUST barely understand and just barely use. It was good advice, just, it took me 50 pipes to understand it. So there's something to what Premal is saying. "Try it and find out" shouldn't be the daily refrain, but something along that line isn't inappropriate - guidance and ideas.

I agree with this, but here is the problem that I see, and I pointed this out on chat the other night. There are too few people nowadays who have the kind of humility to take this kind of direction and make something out of it. So if we go this route, and fail to attract the next generation of pipemakers, does the problem then lie with us, or them?

The kind of people you have to hold their hands every step of the way aren't the kind that will ever achieve greatness. Those who have self-motivation need direction, not hand-holding. Catering to what they may perceive as a need (should they perceive that they need coddling and unnecessarily detailed instructions) may end up serving to delay their success as a consequence.

I guess Premal just said the same thing, though.

Not really. There are plenty of capable people that still want things handed to them.

[Oakbear]

I had a few days off the forum then read this. I was going to reply about how much info is already here, and giving a tough time and expecting noobs to figure stuff out is part of the process .Then i read the rest of the new posts.

I feel there has been a definite change, which is very helpful and welcoming, and encourages people to learn without spoon feeding them. I have learnt some new stuff, and i have lurked and read virtually every thread on here before.
So thanks guys.

[clickklick]

Being a new guy here I'll chime in. I go no other place for pipe making lessons. I have been very intimidated by the existing group but after breaking the ice and showing my intent I have been met with nothing but helpful guidance.

Even though I act like a loon and try to sell my turds for a few bucks, the respect I have for the members of this forum speaks volumes for what this place is. Activity is down from where it once seemed to be, but there is still much value here.

And despite George arguing semantics just to argue, he did post a response with a very detailed explanation of shank extensions and he is an asset to this forum.

[LatakiaLover]

And despite George arguing semantics just to argue, ...

Semantics (from Ancient Greek: σημαντικός sēmantikós, "significant") is the study of meaning. It focuses on the relation between signifiers, like words, phrases, signs, and symbols, and what they stand for; their denotation. Linguistic semantics is the study of meaning that is used for understanding human expression through language.

Thank you Wiki

Given that "understanding human expression through language" is the reason written forums exist---for communication---resolving ambiguity, obfuscation, insufficient detail, word usage, and so forth is essential if the concept is to work well enough to serve any useful purpose. That's what I did. Achieving clarity takes a bit of work sometimes, is all. I never do it for entertainment or any other purpose. (including now)

... he did post a response with a very detailed explanation of shank extensions and he is an asset to this forum.

Actually, it wasn't detailed, just a basic description of the simplest and most straightforward method of shank splicing (there are several) intended to get you thinking about and visualizing the concept so that actual detailed answers will make sense later.

As for my being a board asset, that depends on the temperament of the reader. Those who seek community first and foremost tend not to think so; while those who are perfection-chasers first and seek warm-n-fuzzies second, do. (When I'm being serious, anyway.)

Speaking of being serious, here's something you're gonna need to watch sooner or later, because every new maker hits the same stem-making wall eventually. Bookmarking is recommended. (You'll know when it's time to watch it based on the feedback your stems are getting on the Gallery board.)

PART 1 --- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eI8uDWs2 ... e=youtu.be

PART 2 --- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yEbDiKfe ... e=youtu.be

[Yak]

1) "We don't see things as they are. We see things as we are." --Anais Nin

Having to always be the Alpha Male definitely included.

2) The internet pretty well replaced books because the relatively effortless gratification it offered played well to human laziness. Now "social media" trumps that.

One board I haunt (or, infect) disabled the "like" button feature, thinking to force more chatty interaction. The opposite happened instead. Clicking "like" took one second; writing a short post took maybe 30, which was more effort than people facing a list of posts to read were willing to put into being sociably nice to each other.

FWIW

[Massis]

One board I haunt (or, infect) disabled the "like" button feature, thinking to force more chatty interaction. The opposite happened instead. Clicking "like" took one second; writing a short post took maybe 30, which was more effort than people facing a list of posts to read were willing to put into being sociably nice to each other.

That's why I love the Flemish/Dutch pipesmoker forums. Recently one of the new members suggested adding that "like button". The idea was immediately shot down by the rest of the forum, because we like communicating like actual human beings instead of hitting like buttons.

[Charl]

I would guess that some of the decline in activity has to do with "regulars" getting tired of combative tones, opinions expressed as absolutes, and people without much experience presenting themselves as experts. I know I find those things tiresome and will often not post on something I'm interested in discussing because I don't want to get dragged into an argument. I've gotten involved in those discussions a couple times in the past and they mostly made me want to punch myself in the face. I imagine if that keeps me from posting it probably keeps others from posting, as well. I think some humility and self awareness would go a long way.

Amen!
Lately I feel as if comments fall in one of two categories only. The one is to tell the world how wonderful you are, the other arguing about shit. Who wants to be part of a community if that is the case?
I learned everything (however small and insignificant I am) about pipemaking here. Have some respect and be nice!

[mcgregorpipes]

It's happening everywhere on the Net, regardless of interest group:

https://www.google.com/search?num=100&s ... Cl7eb0wfHk

Classic, threaded forums killed off the UseNet email list services, and now Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, Snapchat, and fully interactive real-time options like Google Hangouts are killing off threaded forums.

Your speculation that the decline in membership/activity is "recent behavior specific" is a guilt-derived (you are a former pastor, after all) spurious correlation. An appealing one because it's something that's controllable in the sense that action can be taken in response to it, but nothing more. It isn't the cause.

for what its worth I recently added a few of my favorite pipe makers on facebook and was surprised by how often new work is posted on there. but to be fair there's little to no pipe making discussion. I like to read through all the new threads here going on a few years and I'm always happily surprised to learn something new.

[dogcatcher]

I am not a pipemaker, I make game calls, but I read the forum daily looking at the new threads and post to pick up hints to improve my woodworking and callmaking. Pipemaking is a lot like callmaking, we use lathes and do some carving on hardwoods to create duck, turkey and predator calls.

This forum is like any forum, there are only so many questions that can be asked. The experienced get tired of answering the same questions day after day, slowly the experienced tend to skip the questions and start conversations about everything under the sun but the questions that are being asked. The old archived information has the answers, but the same happens on the callmaker forums, the same questions get asked over and over and then asked again.

Today people do not want to read the old threads, all they want is answers. It is easier to ask how something is done than it is to read the old answers. You are all talented woodworkers/pipemakers, anyone of you could go to one of the callmaker forums and start reading and within a few months be able to make a game call as good as most of the callmakers. Doing it without asking a hundred questions, but most will start out asking the same question the last new person asked. That is human nature, why should anyone invest 100 hours reading when they can type a question and get an answer in a few minutes?

I don't believe the bantering has anything to do with the drop in activity on the forum, if anything it keeps the forum going during the slow summer doldrums. I can show you a forum that is lucky to see 5 posts a week, but wait until duck season starts, the activity will pick up again. Summers are to be outside, not cooped up in a basement shop or on the computer. Wait until the first snow storm, the shop lights will be turned on and the new guys will come out of hiding.

[Red]

George; when I click the links you posted for stem work, I get the message that the videos do not exist. Do these links work for anyone else?
Thanks.

[LatakiaLover]

No idea what happens to links sometimes. They just get corrupted. Ought to be called "link rust"

I went straight to YT, found the videos, and did a fresh copy / paste:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eI8uDWs2szY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yEbDiKfeqdw

[Red]

Thanks. That worked.

[Red]

Great videos, btw. Thanks.