The current state of this forum

Post by **Tyler** » Sat Aug 15, 2015 11:12 am

Friends,

I have been thinking a fair amount lately about the state of this forum. This used to be the place to go for pipe making information. The archives still hold the greatest collection of pipe making info available on the 'Net, I think it's safe to say. However, I'd say the forum is dying. I think that's sad.

Why do I say it's dying? My first data point is activity. There just aren't many posts. Second, new account activations are WAY down. I activate a handful a month now, and I used to activate 20+/wk.

Why is it dying? I think it's because we act like assholes, especially to new people. (E.g. Vegan thread, pipe makers guild.) It's all fun and games to joke and banter like the old friends we are, but it sucks to be a new guy and get hammered if you ask a question that's weird. There are now lots of places to find pipe making info. If I was new, I'll be honest, I wouldn't come here.

How'd it happen? Who knows? It's almost as if the culture of honest critique has morphed into a culture of always saying whatever comes to your mind. There is no reason honest critique and asshole-ism need to go hand in hand. It's good to filter your comments with the other person in mind. Encouragement is almost always more helpful than bashing.

So now what? I guess stop being an ass. Yeah, I'm talking to you. Start treating others like you'd like to be treated. I'm not saying all the joking and fun should stop, I don't think it should. I just think we should be considerate of the new guys, welcome them, and teach them. That's really what this forum is all about.

C'mon guys, we're about to screw this thing up. Let's not.

Tyler

NathanA · Post by **NathanA** » Sat Aug 15, 2015 11:42 am

Well stated. Thank you, Tyler.

jogilli · Post by **jogilli** » Sat Aug 15, 2015 2:07 pm

Very well stated

James

LatakiaLover · Post by **LatakiaLover** » Sat Aug 15, 2015 2:25 pm

It's happening everywhere on the Net, regardless of interest group:

https://www.google.com/search?num=100&s ... Cl7eb0wfHk

Classic, threaded forums killed off the UseNet email list services, and now Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, Snapchat, and fully interactive real-time options like Google Hangouts are killing off threaded forums.

Your speculation that the decline in membership/activity is "recent behavior specific" is a guilt-derived (you are a former pastor, after all) spurious correlation. An appealing one because it's something that's controllable in the sense that action can be taken in response to it, but nothing more. It isn't the cause.

sethile · Post by **sethile** » Sat Aug 15, 2015 4:12 pm

Amen, Tyler!

There has been a lot less substance at all levels. I'm at least as guilty of anyone of not adding much in the way of useful content lately.

It's worth making an effort to bring it back. This forum is still the best place for useful pipe making information at all levels of interest in the archives. Let's bring it back to being a fun and productive place to participate for everyone interested, instead of just a bunch of seasoned pipe makers with some time to kill, and unusually thick skinned noobs willing to lap up the scraps of information that still occasionally fall between the jabs.

NathanA · Post by **NathanA** » Sat Aug 15, 2015 5:17 pm

And the post that tries to refute the topic proves it instead. Nicely done.

PremalChheda · Post by **PremalChheda** » Sat Aug 15, 2015 5:21 pm

I have been a bit of a douche posting at times. I apologize.

LatakiaLover · Post by **LatakiaLover** » Sat Aug 15, 2015 5:28 pm

NathanA wrote:And the post that tries to refute the topic proves it instead. Nicely done.

I don't think you understand how argument and logic work.

Tyler drew a conclusion regarding the forum's declining participation based on something subjective, when there is overwhelming objective evidence which points to an entirely different cause.

I pointed it out. Nothing more, nothing less.

https://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=forum%20growth

https://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=forum

https://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=online%20forum

https://www.google.com/trends/explore#q ... ticipation

https://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=forum%20usage

It's you who are (apparently) now trying to "start something", not I.

sandahlpipe · Post by **sandahlpipe** » Sat Aug 15, 2015 5:54 pm

The banter is part of what keeps me coming back here. Yet I get a ton of questions through social media from new pipe makers. I think social media is the biggest reason for the decline of the forum.

I don't, however, disagree that we could take it easier on the new guys. The only stupid question is the one not asked. Most new guys have dozens of issues with their pipes, but not every single detail needs to be addressed in the first ask for critique post. Also, the sandwich technique helps critique go down easier. Start and end your critique with something positive.

I'm going to up my game and work harder to be kind to new guys. But I'm not guaranteeing anything to the regulars...

Post by **Tyler** » Sat Aug 15, 2015 7:23 pm

I don't think this is because of social media. You can't easily learn to make a pipe on Instagram, Snapchat, or whatever. YouTube, perhaps, but is that social media? Maybe, I guess, but this forum is still a very efficient way to communicate about pipes.

I've had several conversations with people over the last few years that bemoan the cliquish-ness of this forum. I appreciate feedback like that. I have never been too sympathetic to clique arguments though. To me, that just means people want to be a part of a group of friends, but are intimidated to join in. Join in, for pete's sake. This isn't exclusive. However, I think we've taken it to a level recently that is problematic because of rudeness. That's all I'm trying to point out.

George, your dogmatic declaration that this is guilt derived is a load of crap. I don't feel one whit of guilt. And the implication that guilt is my go-to emotion as a former pastor is offensive.

mredmond · Post by **mredmond** » Sat Aug 15, 2015 7:31 pm

I would guess that some of the decline in activity has to do with "regulars" getting tired of combative tones, opinions expressed as absolutes, and people without much experience presenting themselves as experts. I know I find those things tiresome and will often not post on something I'm interested in discussing because I don't want to get dragged into an argument. I've gotten involved in those discussions a couple times in the past and they mostly made me want to punch myself in the face. I imagine if that keeps me from posting it probably keeps others from posting, as well. I think some humility and self awareness would go a long way.

LatakiaLover · Post by **LatakiaLover** » Sat Aug 15, 2015 7:42 pm

Tyler wrote:However, I think we've taken it to a level recently that is problematic because of rudeness. That's all I'm trying to point out.

So, this was just pretext, then?

Why do I SAY it's dying? My first data point is activity. There just aren't many posts. Second, new account activations are WAY down. I activate a handful a month now, and I used to activate 20+/wk.

Why IS it dying? I think it's because we act like assholes, especially to new people.

If so, this thread would have gone a lot smoother if you'd skipped all that. Just made your point / said your piece / etc. You own the joint, you don't need pretext.

George, your dogmatic declaration that this is guilt derived is a load of crap. I don't feel one whit of guilt. And the implication that guilt is my go-to emotion as a former pastor is offensive.

Now that's some mis-communication wrapped in solid gold irony, right there.

I thought I was being sympathetic to, and understanding of, your natural disposition to react to the stress of others by assuming some responsibility for it, since the forum is yours. It's a generous, spiritual quality (I thought) I noticed when we talked that evening about your years in Uganda. Not so, apparently. My bad.

mredmond · Post by **mredmond** » Sat Aug 15, 2015 8:08 pm

Not to speak for Tyler at all, but empathy, sympathy, and a sense of responsibility are not the same thing as guilt. The word guilt is also often used pejoratively to explain why spiritual people, especially Christians, do what they do, as if they are driven by an emotion they aren't in control of. That use implies that these people aren't thoughtful or intelligent enough to not be controlled by emotion. I'm not saying that's how you meant it, George, but I can certainly see how Tyler took it that way.

P.s. This is me attempting to engage constructively and get more involved. : )

sandahlpipe · Post by **sandahlpipe** » Sat Aug 15, 2015 9:35 pm

I still think people are going to Facebook, YouTube, and Instagram to learn. I see questions about pipe making on several groups on Facebook. Again, I'm not saying that we are behaved well on this forum, but it no longer holds the monopoly on pipe making know-how that it once did. It still is the best source of information and that's proven by the number of forum members who win the KC contest every year.

Because the level of effort is high (it took me several months of free time to read the archives) and the average learner is satisfied with the basics, I really think the popularity is low for the format. Furthermore, this is the first forum I've done anything with or even joined. I think people aren't used to joining forums as much as they used to. They'll read through what pops up on Google when they ask a question.

So I think both Tyler and George are right. The new guys who do come sometimes get scared off by the tone. But some new guys also don't even ever get to the forum. Frankly, I didn't even know about the forum for the first year of pipe making. I learned the basics from YouTube and guys that gave me pointers from YouTube and Instagram.

NathanA · Post by **NathanA** » Sat Aug 15, 2015 10:00 pm

I think Tyler's point, and he can correct me if I am wrong, has gotten lost in the State Of The Internet discussion. I don't think his point was that people being a-holes was THE reason for the downturn in the forum. His point was that it is A reason and therefore something we can do something about. Even if someone can prove conclusively that it is not any reason at all it is still a valid concern because people being a-holes and giving miles of obnoxious runaround for every question asked quickly becomes tiresome for those who still choose to come here.

I love the sense of humor of the folks who post here and don't want to see it end. It is just that humor has taken the place of substance and that's not as fun as some think it is.

seamonster · Post by **seamonster** » Sat Aug 15, 2015 11:09 pm

Another issue I see is the reliance on the back catalog for information. I've been here for a year and a half, and I've read over and over "you can find the answer to the question you just asked by searching the archives.". this happens so often that many posts start with " I've searched the archives, but can't find the answer to this question:... " I think what this really means is "I'm looking for a conversation, some dialogue, some sense of community with real people. I don't want to spend my evening with the search box..." it's great that all the previous posts are there, and there IS a wealth of knowledge in the back catalog, but sending the new guys off to look reeks of "can't be bothered...". there is a growing community around pipe smoking and pipe making, but sometimes folks here don't seem to want to engage the new-comers to the community. I get that some of these questions have been asked a hundred times, and maybe it sucks to answer it over and over... but sometimes it isn't the answer that counts, it's the connection, the conversation, the dialogue that matters. new guys haven't seen that conversation over and over..... I'm a teacher, and though I've taught my curriculum over and over and over, it's new to my students each year, and its my job to engage them, so they enter the discourse and are able to grow. I answer their questions with " let's talk about that " even though I've had the conversation ten times.... instead of saying "go check the text book, your answer is already there..."

people want to interface. my 2 cents.

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

kamkiel · Post by **kamkiel** » Sat Aug 15, 2015 11:17 pm

This forum is the one site I visit often on a daily basis. I do not have access to the Facebooks and other stuff here in china (as much as I would love to know all of your relationship statuses, it has been censored for my safety). I am a member on a few Chinese pipemaking social networks, and they are very unsatisfying to say the least. I wasn't a member of pmf in its "prime", but I am here now and I find that I have been treated respectfully with every pipe that I have been critiqued on. One area I find intimidating is posting my opinions on certain topics because I am in a room full of experts who know a lot more about it than me.

Is it possible that when the forum started it was a lot of "let's work together and figure this out" mentality? Now the collective efforts the older members is common knowledge and we don't have too much else to talk about? I suppose the forum needs a future if it doesn't want to become just an archive. The members also need to know and understand the direction the forum intends on moving in and support it in a productive manner.

Kiel

LatakiaLover · Post by **LatakiaLover** » Sat Aug 15, 2015 11:27 pm

NathanA wrote:I think Tyler's point ... has gotten lost in the State Of The Internet discussion.

Gotten lost? It was his main point. What he opened with, using specific examples drawn from personal experience. The why came later.

I don't think his point was that people being a-holes was THE reason for the downturn in the forum. His point was that it is A reason and therefore something we can do something about.

No, it wasn't part of a LIST of things, he specifically said it was THE reason.

Even if someone can prove conclusively that it is not any reason at all it is still a valid concern because people being a-holes and giving miles of obnoxious runaround for every question asked quickly becomes tiresome for those who still choose to come here.

That may or may not be true, but it's a separate discussion in any event. But tying one to the other based on a feeling alone doesn't fly. Which is why it seemed to me that the whole "declining interest and participation" thing was just pretext to say what he really wanted.

I love the sense of humor of the folks who post here and don't want to see it end. It is just that humor has taken the place of substance and that's not as fun as some think it is.

So, which is it? There's that passive aggressive thing again. You love it, but, well... actually you don't. Or rather, only in some particular amount that people are free to guess at, and you'll be sure to tell them whether they got it right or not at some indeterminate time in the future. (In the corporate management world that little mindfuck power game is called, "Bring Me A Rock".)

Nathan, the way you spray words without much thought or editing at whatever object (or person) irritates you is every bit as crazy-inducing to me as my parsing and paying attention to exactly what people actually say (as opposed to what they might mean) is to you. It's the fundamental source of the sparks we generate. I'm beginning to think that one of the primary reasons people are abandoning thread-based forums is because they've been around long enough that most everyone has experienced something like what WE are right now, which exposed the inherent bandwidth limitations. Limitations that newer forms of Internet interaction do not have. (Example --- this board's Google+ meetup has been going on for 3-4 hours a shot, twice a week, for over a year, with anywhere from five to 15-18 participants. That's north of 5000 man-hours of interaction. And there has never been an argument of any kind (that I know of). In fact, the reliably cheerful good will is the REASON some people participate. The information is incidental.)

oklahoma red · Post by **oklahoma red** » Sat Aug 15, 2015 11:50 pm

Bless you Tyler. Just when things are getting a bit blase in here you know which buttons to push. Yeeee haaaaa!

sandahlpipe · Post by **sandahlpipe** » Sat Aug 15, 2015 11:51 pm

So George, what you're in essence saying is that the bulk of forum interaction now takes place on social media...

pipemakersforum.com