A Letter to Up-and-Comers on Pipe Critique

[NathanA]

The recent nonsense about pipe critique has quickly reminded me why I don't spend a whole lot of time here any more. I would be more than happy to critique the execution of a pipe but it is totally pointless of me to critique the design of a pipe. As has been stated over and over again, don't try and design the next big thing until you are able to execute. I could draw the most amazing building on paper (even use the special really large blue stuff) but unless I have the ability to execute, it is just a drawing.

If you want constructive critique on how well you executed, than by all means show us a picture of the pipe you wanted to make alongside a picture of the pipe you did make and let us tell you where you could have done better and, possibly (God forbid) where you completely screwed the pooch. If the pipe you made is exactly like the vision in your head than you don't need to post it here for critique, you are already the "master" of your own design. If you were aiming for something and didn't hit it how are we to know what you were aiming for? How are we to know you didn't want any definition at the cheeks or flow to the curves? I know it is hard to control those creative urges and the desire to design the next big thing but until you have a good grasp on execution save your design energy for later. Once you have execution somewhat in hand then you can ask for critique on design (which will cause a whole new set of problems and hurt feelings.)

To sum up, copying is your friend and designing is not (as long as you aren't trying to copy some Tokutomi or Florov or Revyagin art piece.)

[Sasquatch]

Truth.

I was going to tackle some of this from the other direction - if you can't critique a pipe and say WHY what you are saying is what you are saying, then don't critique.

I think some of what's happening is there's a little "this is too thick, this is too thin" and NO explanation of what the critiquer is seeing, how he comes to his conclusion.

Like the Jim Rome Show, "You Suck" is not a take. To critique properly, one must give clear reasons for what he is saying, otherwise it's just another opinion, and you know what they say about those.

So I think we can ALL step up our game on this part of the board.

[notow1]

I understand what You are saying but My problem is in design. I guess I lack the good eyes or artistic ability to know what works. I post here hoping Someone will say stuff like that cant is wrong, or Your stem doesn't work with that stummel, and then I will know better. I also realize the pipe makers here are very generous with Their time and I hope Nobody is put off by this little dust up. I do not believe I have ever had any major disagreement with a critique of My pipes, and hopefully have learned and improved because of the critiques. I hope all You Pipe Makers continue to do what You do here and thank You for that, Norm.

[NathanA]

I think that if you want critique on design be specific about it. Unfortunately design is where you cross the line to opinion territory and there things get dicey and feathers get ruffled. The only thing to remember is that if you really like the pipes made by the guy giving the advice on your design, listen. If you don't like his pipes, don't listen. Also, I think pipemakers are less likely to give advice in this area both because it is more subjective and there is almost always blowback if someone doesn't particularly like a design.

I truly think the best way to better your design process is to study pipes. . . a lot. Pictures on websites, picking them up at shows, whatever you can to look at more pipes in more detail. I think the more pipes you look at the more you will see patterns in certain areas of design and be able to compare and contrast the patterns you see in, for example, factory pipes versus high grade handmades. Or the differences between handmades that sell for $200 or less (that number is higher than it should be, but such is the state of the world right now) to higher priced stuff. Find what you like and (I won't say copy but I mean copy) try to emulate it.

[PremalChheda]

Besides the occasional butt getting hurt and under qualified critiquer, I do not see any real issues with the way posters act or how members critique. Am I missing something? Setting down rules seems a little excessive.

Butts will get hurt. Deal with it.

[PremalChheda]

Truth.

I was going to tackle some of this from the other direction - if you can't critique a pipe and say WHY what you are saying is what you are saying, then don't critique.

I think some of what's happening is there's a little "this is too thick, this is too thin" and NO explanation of what the critiquer is seeing, how he comes to his conclusion.

Like the Jim Rome Show, "You Suck" is not a take. To critique properly, one must give clear reasons for what he is saying, otherwise it's just another opinion, and you know what they say about those.

So I think we can ALL step up our game on this part of the board.

IAWS

[NathanA]

Besides the occasional butt getting hurt and under qualified critiquer, I do not see any real issues with the way posters act or how members critique. Am I missing something? Setting down rules seems a little excessive.

Butts will get hurt. Deal with it.

I didn't say anything about rules I'm just trying to help those that want actual critique get what they want. It is far easier to help someone hit a target when we are able to see where the target lies.

[PremalChheda]

Besides the occasional butt getting hurt and under qualified critiquer, I do not see any real issues with the way posters act or how members critique. Am I missing something? Setting down rules seems a little excessive.

Butts will get hurt. Deal with it.

I didn't say anything about rules I'm just trying to help those that want actual critique get what they want. It is far easier to help someone hit a target when we are able to see where the target lies.

I agree a little, but the challenge is that they do not always know what they want. They need guidance in design sometimes without asking for it. The problem lies in the critiquer. Frankly, there are not enough seasoned pipe makers with a good eye that are critiquing. Your input would be very valuable.

[Alden]

if you can't critique a pipe and say WHY what you are saying is what you are saying, then don't critique.

That's why I (mostly) bowed out of critiquing pipes several years back. I remember writing up whatever my thoughts were at the time, and then reading real critiques and realizing what I had written was mostly bullshit, and wrong.
Now I don't have much excuse, except I'm not in the habit of critiquing work, and also lazy.

[NathanA]

I'm with you guys and am going to try and put my two cents in more often because I feel I owe it back to the board that helped me so much in the beginning. I would just rather keep it as objective and practical as possible and that is why I am saying we need to know what you are shooting for so we can help you hit it.

Besides the occasional butt getting hurt and under qualified critiquer, I do not see any real issues with the way posters act or how members critique. Am I missing something? Setting down rules seems a little excessive.

Butts will get hurt. Deal with it.

I didn't say anything about rules I'm just trying to help those that want actual critique get what they want. It is far easier to help someone hit a target when we are able to see where the target lies.

I agree a little, but the challenge is that they do not always know what they want. They need guidance in design sometimes without asking for it. The problem lies in the critiquer. Frankly, there are not enough seasoned pipe makers with a good eye that are critiquing. Your input would be very valuable.

This is kind of why I think that it is easier to work on execution first and worry about design later. I know I wish I would have done it that way.

[sandahlpipe]

I'd rather have someone tell me my pipes suck than to hear crickets. I agree though, that critiques are more helpful if you can give reasons for your way of thinking. I think there's a limit to how much design can be critiqued because it often gets into taste. But there are principles of composition that all good artists know, but not all artists can explain. Some things in the artistic realm have to be learned by intuition. You can learn technical perfection on this forum, but you'll eventually reach a limit on design/aesthetics.

[PremalChheda]

I'd rather have someone tell me my pipes suck than to hear crickets. I agree though, that critiques are more helpful if you can give reasons for your way of thinking. I think there's a limit to how much design can be critiqued because it often gets into taste. But there are principles of composition that all good artists know, but not all artists can explain. Some things in the artistic realm have to be learned by intuition. You can learn technical perfection on this forum, but you'll eventually reach a limit on design/aesthetics.

Another issue that will arise if design is critiqued to principles of compostion, is that makers that go outside the lines like Maigurs, Rolando, Wallenstein, etc.. will be guided in the wrong direction for them. Their work is extraordinary, and if they followed principles of compostion for what we think looks good, then they would not have really developed their style.

[sandahlpipe]

People who March to the beat of their own drum don't tend to ask for other people's input on their work. If my memory serves me, Maigurs had a background in wood working before he began making pipes. His work isn't actually breaking rules. It's clear that he bends them, but he generally follows the rules of composition. What we have a lot more of on this forum is people who come in expecting to break the mold without taking the time to understand principles. The path for the majority to arrive at success is to start with classics and develop an eye for shaping.

[Ratimus]

Icouldn'tAWJmore. Well spoken.

If somebody with unnatural amounts of innate ability and a singular vision comes in with guns blazing, telling them to make a bent billiard is not going to quench their fire.

However, if somebody comes in waving their arms like a madman because they are ON fire, they probably could stand to have a bucket of water dumped on them.

[notow1]

[quote][However, if somebody comes in waving their arms like a madman because they are ON fire, they probably could stand to have a bucket of water dumped on them./quote]That is great, Norm.

[Charl]

Well said, Ryan!

[e Markle]

I have no idea what's going on here.

You're welcome.

[WCannoy]

I have no idea what's going on here.

You're welcome.

Thanks Ernie. I've been looking for a good quote for my sig!

[e Markle]

Ha! Well, it's emblematic of my life as a whole.

[scotties22]

I have no idea what's going on here.

This, my friends, is going to be the next PMF T-shirt!!!!