Advice on taking commissions

[mejoshee]

Ok, time for my first real post! CAUTION: I write long posts.

I've ordered a couple commissions from a couple carvers here already (though the full list is way too long!), but this past week, when I was showing some in-progress rough work, a couple Danish-inspired pieces, a recent newcomer to our local B&M requested I make him one too.

I was of course overwhelmingly flattered and thrilled! But, I was also a little thrown since I had in mind to get through a recent batch of rough shaped stummels before going "public" by actually selling something that wasn't a pre-smoked shop pipe. He asked me what I charge and I said I had to think about it. No, this is not a yet-another-pricing-thread opening a can of worms. (Depending on gallery critique, I'm thinking to start at the $100-150 range.)

However, the last couple nights, I did start on it once he gave me some good, clear characteristics he wanted, but I think he afforded me acceptable latitude to use my discretion. Yet there remain some unknowns. What I'd like to know in general, at what point is the pre-customer under-constraining the project? How much is over-constraining? Now being on the other side of the fence--as a person hoping to carve for a buyer, not the buyer him/herself--I understand I have been vague at times or overly critical in others. I mean, to paraphrase, we are beautifying a block of wood with 2 holes drilled in it for smoking.

I suppose this is itself a huge philosophical discussion of art vs. business, service vs. self-expression. To clarify, say a customer really wants X shape, Y stem/style, Z finish. That's all the info. You can keep asking questions, but chances are they will know less about the elements you can/can't control and the specs you are trying to meet, i.e. deliverables. (Out comes the engineer-speak.) If I had the wherewithal at the time I would have asked a myriad more questions such as the general stain/color he was hoping for.

In his case, he wanted what he called his favorite, though only seen him smoke it once before: A larger-bowled, thick, straight-walled pipe with a saddle stem, higher-than-normal height to shank ratio, like a Dunhill 5212 shape on steroids. He wanted a "smooth" finish, which is good cause I don't have a blaster and that's all I've done so far. After that, it was left to my imagination to create the dimensions. I'll show him the progress this weekend hopefully, so this should have a near-term ending, but how do you all figure these details out?

I suppose the extreme opposite is a buyer of a pipe sight unseen via the interwebz, but this is unlikely for the typical pipe collector/smoker. Somewhere not too far from that though is what is presented on your shop website or show table where no input is taken on the construction and it is offered for sale as-is. They may see specs, but does the average so-and-so know exactly how 70g is vs. 68? or 2" vs. 2 1/4" bowl height?

I'm mostly thinking aloud I suppose, but if the devil is in the details, he and I should have been pals a long time ago. I guess that's why I needed to join this forum too!

Cheers and good luck to you all @ the Kansas show!

[Ocelot55]

There is really no right or wrong answer here, but you should study the commission policies of other carvers and develop a clear set of guidelines that is easy to communicate with customers. You need to protect yourself from tire kickers and other sorts of over demanding commissioners.

As early as you are in your career I wouldn't accept any commissions, or at least not publicly IMHO. You need time to focus on developing the skills you need to properly execute a commissioned design.

[sandahlpipe]

I agree with Jesse. If you can avoid taking commissions while you are learning, then hold off. If you do commissions, be aware that the customers who specify everything right down to the amount of red in the stain are probably not going to be easy to please.

For starting out, $100 is generally reasonable for a pipe that is well made and smokes well. There's a lot of competition in that price range, though, so it's hard to say if that's a reasonable price for you to start at without seeing your work. You can always raise prices later, but coming in too high means you'll have a hard time lowering them without making customers who bought higher priced pipes of comparable quality from you feel like they got a bad value.

[Sasquatch]

I always worked on a "I'll make it, if you like it, you buy it, if not, I'll sell it elsewhere" sort of strategy. That forces me to make a pipe that's good enough to sell publically in the first place, and it hardly ever backfired (when it did, it was because I had missed something important in the commission).

The guys to avoid are the "chamber to be 25.22 mm deep by 17.575mm across, total pipe weight 33.57 grams and exactly 5 13/16" long. Oh and with a titanium band.

[W.Pastuch]

I always worked on a "I'll make it, if you like it, you buy it, if not, I'll sell it elsewhere" sort of strategy. That forces me to make a pipe that's good enough to sell publically in the first place, and it hardly ever backfired (when it did, it was because I had missed something important in the commission).

The guys to avoid are the "chamber to be 25.22 mm deep by 17.575mm across, total pipe weight 33.57 grams and exactly 5 13/16" long. Oh and with a titanium band.

Exactly like that.

[LatakiaLover]

The guys to avoid are the "chamber to be 25.22 mm deep by 17.575mm across, total pipe weight 33.57 grams and exactly 5 13/16" long. Oh and with a titanium band.

Hey there, big guy... You're conveniently leaving off that I specified the chamber diameter be 17.576mm, and you then had the audacity to go all, "I doubt anyone can taste a thousandth of an inch" on me when I rightly---and correctly---called you on it. (It wasn't MY fault that your calipers were calibrated wrong.)

So, please stop using this forum to take passive-aggressive digs at patient, reasonable people like me who have little tolerance for wild-assed "artistes" like yourself when sloppiness is the issue, OK? Next time, I recommend you final sand the chamber with two passes of 4000 grit instead of 2500 to avoid issues like this. I also don't appreciate being forced to contact everyone I've ever known to tell them how unreasonable you are.

Uppity damn carvers.

[Sasquatch]

You get those guys too, huh?

[Tyler]

Another tip, offered by a guy who loathes and therefore doesn't take commissions, is to remember that without the latitude for YOU to be in the pipe, why are they asking you? Exact copies are factory work.

[mejoshee]

Thanks for all the great advice. I subconsciously went with the make-it-and-hope-he-likes-it approach anyway. I showed him the rough saying progress and he was very excited and said the wall thickness was perfect! So, I guess I got lucky.

But I think ultimately you guys are still right that I need to make a bunch and sell them first. I didn't want to make this a habit (not yet).

[Literaryworkshop]

I'm still learning (a lot) and I've done a couple commissions. Thus far, IAWS (I agree with Sas). I wouldn't take a commission for a pipe that I wasn't pretty sure I could sell elsewhere. So my commissions are really more like, "I'll make a pipe to your general description, and you get first dibs on it." I can't see myself doing it any other way.

[Charl]

Ditto on what Sas and Tyler said. The only difference to my system, is that if the pipe is something off the beaten track, something I know that is not going to be easy to sell, I will ask the customer a deposit. It doesn't happen often though.

[mightysmurf8201]

After being burned too many times, I finally started requiring customers to sign an agreement that includes paying a $50 nonrefundable deposit for all commissions, with the stipulation that the remaining balance must be paid within 30 days of notification that the pipe is ready. This seems to have warded off many of the people who like the idea of a custom pipe, but don't like the idea of paying for it, and I still have no problem selling the pipes I do make.

The following is from the main body of my purchase agreement, in case anyone was curious:


I HEREBY AGREE TO THE FOLLOWING TERMS:

I AM ORDERING A COMMISSIONED TOBACCO PIPE(S) FROM ATILANO PIPES LLC IN A STYLE(S) AND SHAPE(S) AGREED UPON IN PREVIOUS WRITTEN AND/OR ELECTRONIC CORRESPONDENCE WITH ATILANO PIPES LLC AND/OR IT’S AUTHORIZED AGENT(S), AND/OR AS DESCRIBED BELOW. STYLE(S) AND/OR SHAPE(S) OF THE PIPE(S) MAY BE ALTERED DURING THE PROCESS OF CONSTRUCTION IF AGREED UPON BY BOTH PARTIES.

I AGREE TO PAY A FIFTY DOLLAR($50) NONREFUNDABLE DEPOSIT, WHICH WILL BE SUBTRACTED FROM THE FINAL PURCHASE PRICE UPON FINAL BILLING. CONSTRUCTION OF THE PIPE WILL NOT BEGIN UNTIL AND IF THE NONREFUNDABLE DEPOSIT IS BOTH RECEIVED AND ACCEPTED BY ATILANO PIPES LLC. IF THE DEPOSIT IS NOT ACCEPTED, IT WILL BE RETURNED TO THE SENDER. COMMISSIONED WORK MAY BE ACCEPTED OR DECLINED AT THE DISCRETION OF ATILANO PIPES LLC, FOR ANY REASON NOT PROHIBITED BY LAW.

I AGREE TO THE PRICE RANGE QUOTED BELOW. I AGREE TO PAY THE FINAL PURCHASE PRICE, WHICH WILL FALL WITHIN THE QUOTED PRICE RANGE, PLUS SHIPPING AND HANDLING COSTS IF APPLICABLE. I WILL BE BILLED UPON COMPLETION OF THE TOBACCO PIPE.

I AGREE TO PAY THE FINAL PURCHASE PRICE PLUS ANY APPLICABLE SHIPPING AND HANDLING COSTS WITHIN 30 CALENDER DAYS OF BEING BILLED. IF PAYMENT IN FULL IS NOT RECEIVED BY ATILANO PIPES LLC WITHIN 30 CALENDER DAYS OF BEING BILLED, I AGREE TO FORFEIT THE FIFTY DOLLAR($50) NONREFUNDABLE DEPOSIT, AND ATILANO PIPES LLC WILL NOT BE OBLIGATED TO HOLD THE PIPE AND MAY SELL THE PIPE TO ANOTHER PARTY AT ANY PRICE DESIGNATED BY ATILANO PIPES LLC.

QUOTED PRICE RANGE______________________________


DESCRIPTION OF ITEM(S) ORDERED____________________________________________________

______________________________________________________________________________________


SIGNATURE_____________________________________________ DATE_______________________

[The Smoking Yeti]

Woah, do you really send it in all caps like that?

Personally I'm of the you-like-it-you-buy-it mentality. I don't have the time or the will to go back and re-work a finished pipe to fit the customers' preferences. Either they're buying a pipe with me in it, or they're buying a pipe from someone else.

[Sasquatch]

Mostly the latter, Micah.

[PremalChheda]

My advice: Do not take commissions unless pipe making is your entire or partial income, and you have a good handle on your skills and capabilities as a pipe maker.

[mightysmurf8201]

That's copy and pasted directly from the pdf, so yeah it's all in caps. I agree with Premal, which is why I have no problem saying no to someone's request if I know it's outside of my abilities to deliver, or if it's something I simply don't want to do. In the case of the latter, on a few occasions I've told people, "what you're asking for is not really in line with my style" and I have yet to have anyone react adversly, in fact they tend to respect me more for my convictions. I can see why some people don't like taking commissions, and I agree with those reasons, but as for me, I accept them on a limited basis for a few reasons. 1) It's (almost)guaranteed extra income (I have 5 kids and my wife stays home to homeschool them, so any extra money is welcome), 2) Although I will take a commission to replicate a shape I have previously done because I already have the process worked out, I like to take commissions that I know I can do, but will challenge me. Talking with customers and exchanging ideas with them on what they want helps to get the creative juices flowing and helps me grow as a pipe maker. I will never take a commission if I think I can't pull it off, but the process I have has helped me improve and it works for me for the time being.

[Thomas Tkach]

This is really interesting. If I may tag along with this post since it's on topic, what is your ideal level of contribution from a buyer on a commission? How much is too much? Obviously Sasquatch's example is extreme, but would the following be too much?

-3/4" or 13/16" chamber width
-5" or less
-1.5 oz or less (obviously requesting a shape where this is possible).
-agree upon design drawn by maker beforehand (how much change or input should a buyer give before agreeing to do the project?)
-stain options depending on how the block comes out dictated by buyer (e.g. virgin w/ cumberland if block allows, medium brown without reddish hues and black stem otherwise).

[pipedreamer]

I agree with SAS and Wojtec. Too many pipes out there to be waisting my time. A strong deposit is necessary. Most commissions don't know what they really want.Talk to them and you will find out if they have a clue.

[Sasquatch]

-3/4" or 13/16" chamber width
-5" or less
-1.5 oz or less (obviously requesting a shape where this is possible).
-agree upon design drawn by maker beforehand (how much change or input should a buyer give before agreeing to do the project?)
-stain options depending on how the block comes out dictated by buyer (e.g. virgin w/ cumberland if block allows, medium brown without reddish hues and black stem otherwise).



This kind of thing is fine imo. You need SOME guidance otherwise it's not a custom commission. Shape, color, contingency plans....

[W.Pastuch]

Wow, I just read that purchase agreement you posted Emmanuel- honestly if I received something like that from a pipemaker I would run away screaming and never, ever buy a pipe from them
That's just terrible, you're putting a lawyer/insurance salesman tone to a direct pipe sale, which is actually neither professional (too complex for such a simple purchase), nor friendly.
Sorry, that's just my opinion as a theoretical pipe buyer, feel free to disagree.