Importance of apprenticeship / having a mentor

[PremalChheda]

It is way past my bedtime, but my thoughts are fresh and I need to post some. I will add more at some later time.

For a person planning on making pipes full time to support themselves or their family, the part timer that will supplement his/her income, or for the person that loves to make pipes, it is very important to have a mentor to go to. This concept has worked for centuries to great effect to further the craftsmanship and create interesting and quality hand crafted items, and to further the craft as a whole. Many of the pipe makers that we hold in high esteem for their work have had some sort of mentor. Having a good mentor will help prevent poor quality pipes or pipes with defects from being produced. It is also possible that the apprentice will excel under mentor-ship and surpass the mentor in time.

Those that do not have a mentor or do not think they need instruction or help, tend to create pipes with problems. The finish bleeds, loose tenons, fugly shapes, etc... I have seen it many many times. Some are open to suggestion, but many are blind to the feedback from their peers and customers. This seems to be a trend mostly in the USA where many are independent. In Europe and Asia there is much more cooperation. This is not only in pipe making but as a whole society. Fortunately we have seen some cooperation recently in the USA with the west coast boys getting together, and our March Meetup (which I could not host this year, sorry), and some individuals that have been getting together. (I see Nate way too much) However, there are more than double the amount that do not cooperate and suffer from it.

[LatakiaLover]

Yeah, yeah, sure, sure...

You need to stop just talkin' about it, and DO something, Premal.

Oh, wait

[Massis]

I think you're completely right, and I'd love to have a mentor. However at this point I'm really a part-part-timer as in: I only make 5-15 pipes a year, and I feel I don't really have the right to distract a decent pipemaker from his income with my silly questions.

On the other hand, I recently got in touch with Dirk Claessen, one of the very few full time pipemakers belgium has (I think there's only 2: Dirk who lives in Spain, and Elie who lives in France). He's been kind enough to give me some personal feedback on my pipes and I'll probably send him more pictures in the future.
However, that still results in a "mentorship" much like this forum, a digital one. There simply aren't any full time pipemakers living less then 250km's away (as far as I know) that I could visit for a proper mentoring in person.

[sandahlpipe]

As someone who just recently got back from visiting Walt, I can attest to the value of putting oneself under the tutelage of someone who knows what they're doing. I've been having Walt critique my work for the past year or more under the threat that he disowns me as a student if I make crappy looking pipes. I've sent him two pipes for review and that helped immensely. Going to work in his shop for an extended weekend, however, really opened my eyes to shapes and helped me see things I didn't see before. These are skills that are very hard to learn without someone telling you you're doing it wrong.

So the bottom line is that you should find someone whose work you appreciate and send them pipes to review. Then make a point of going to visit them. That will help you refine your skills in a way that this forum cannot.

[Joe Hinkle Pipes]

I agree totally. I spent some time with Nate last year before Premal's meet up, and in my time in Columbus, and my time in Indianapolis I have learned a lot of little details and made huge changes to the way I make pipes. The forum is a great way to get started, but you really need the hands on help of a mentor that can check things like tenon fit, slot work, button comfort, and such. I have told Nate this several times, but I can't get over the fact that my mentality was to make everything "sharp" because that is what precision looked like to me. Now I know that I wasnt even close. Things have to LOOK sharp, but in reality need to be rounded and softened while still retaining the clean sharp look. that is miles beyond what I could even comprehend at the time and I would probably still be making pipes the same way if Premal, and Nate, and all the guys at the meet up hadn't helped me realize where the next level began.

[JMG]

My proximity to other makers combine with my life in general doesn't afford me the chance to learn hands-on from the experience of others. However, I have pestered the crap out of a few of you guys and I can attest to the kindness that is shown through the time taken to answer my hundreds of e-mails and questions. Wayne alone has spent hours answering all sorts of my questions and has offered much valued tips/advice/critique. He may not know it (or care to admit it after seeing my pipes) but he has been a sort of pipe-making mentor to me and I am very grateful to him. I really appreciate the pipe-making community.

[PremalChheda]

No matter where you reside, there is always an opportunity to converse and visit a peer or mentor as long as you can develop a relationship with them. If you are not willing to put some money down on a plane ticket or some gas, and a hotel room at least once a year, then you limit your opportunity to get some real experience and feedback from a mentor or peer. My mentor lives 1000 miles away, but I conversed with him daily and visited him once a year. I still converse with him on a weekly basis. I also give back to him as much as I can and I go out of my way to do so whether it is related to pipes or not.

First step is to develop a friendship/student relationship with someone that wants teach a little. Then make an effort for them. They will be happy to share with you the knowledge they have gained and worked hard for if you have good intentions and are an eager and grateful student. Also, listen to them and do not argue. You may have a better way, but sometimes it is better to just absorb and evaluate.

[PremalChheda]

My proximity to other makers combine with my life in general doesn't afford me the chance to learn hands-on from the experience of others. However, I have pestered the crap out of a few of you guys and I can attest to the kindness that is shown through the time taken to answer my hundreds of e-mails and questions. Wayne alone has spent hours answering all sorts of my questions and has offered much valued tips/advice/critique. He may not know it (or care to admit it after seeing my pipes) but he has been a sort of pipe-making mentor to me and I am very grateful to him. I really appreciate the pipe-making community.

Sounds like you need to make a visit over to Wayne's sometime, and as a bonus, you can see Nate and me. Bring him a real good gift. Wayne has a very critical eye for giving excellent feedback.

[PremalChheda]

I think you're completely right, and I'd love to have a mentor. However at this point I'm really a part-part-timer as in: I only make 5-15 pipes a year, and I feel I don't really have the right to distract a decent pipemaker from his income with my silly questions.

On the other hand, I recently got in touch with Dirk Claessen, one of the very few full time pipemakers belgium has (I think there's only 2: Dirk who lives in Spain, and Elie who lives in France). He's been kind enough to give me some personal feedback on my pipes and I'll probably send him more pictures in the future.
However, that still results in a "mentorship" much like this forum, a digital one. There simply aren't any full time pipemakers living less then 250km's away (as far as I know) that I could visit for a proper mentoring in person.

I like Dirk. It would be very much worth the trip and effort to go visit him. And with your good attitude about not wasting his time, he may be grateful for your visit. It is worth a shot to ask him. Make sure you bring him a nice gift.

[PremalChheda]

I agree totally. I spent some time with Nate last year before Premal's meet up, and in my time in Columbus, and my time in Indianapolis I have learned a lot of little details and made huge changes to the way I make pipes. The forum is a great way to get started, but you really need the hands on help of a mentor that can check things like tenon fit, slot work, button comfort, and such. I have told Nate this several times, but I can't get over the fact that my mentality was to make everything "sharp" because that is what precision looked like to me. Now I know that I wasnt even close. Things have to LOOK sharp, but in reality need to be rounded and softened while still retaining the clean sharp look. that is miles beyond what I could even comprehend at the time and I would probably still be making pipes the same way if Premal, and Nate, and all the guys at the meet up hadn't helped me realize where the next level began.

There is also much more a mentor can do for you. Both related to pipes and other things in life.

[Joe Hinkle Pipes]

Who was your mentor Premal?

[LatakiaLover]

Who was your mentor Premal?

[PremalChheda]

Who was your mentor Premal?

Who does not matter. Him being great human being, pipe maker, and eager instructor does.

And I had a lot of help from peers and other experienced makers early on and throughout the years.

[Joe Hinkle Pipes]

Who was your mentor Premal?

Who does not matter. Him being great human being, pipe maker, and eager instructor does.

And I had a lot of help from peers and other experienced makers early on and throughout the years.

I see. well, I'm sure he has told you he is proud of what you have accomplished in your personal pipe journey, and also how much you've helped the pipe community in general.

[Josh B.]

having a mentor would be extremely helpful but for some people it just isnt feasible. I live quige far away from the nearest pipemaker. I do want to work on pipes full time and a hands on teaching would be be a big headstart with that sometimes its just not an option and you just jave to learn yourself. I will say that without a hands on teacher this forum is a godsend. There are tons of great pipemakers that give advice and critique, it is incredibly helpful.

[JMG]

My proximity to other makers combine with my life in general doesn't afford me the chance to learn hands-on from the experience of others. However, I have pestered the crap out of a few of you guys and I can attest to the kindness that is shown through the time taken to answer my hundreds of e-mails and questions. Wayne alone has spent hours answering all sorts of my questions and has offered much valued tips/advice/critique. He may not know it (or care to admit it after seeing my pipes) but he has been a sort of pipe-making mentor to me and I am very grateful to him. I really appreciate the pipe-making community.

Sounds like you need to make a visit over to Wayne's sometime, and as a bonus, you can see Nate and me. Bring him a real good gift. Wayne has a very critical eye for giving excellent feedback.

One of these days, for sure. For now, living in the middle of the PNG jungles for 3 years at a time hinders it a tad. But definitely one of these days.

[Sasquatch]

All right. Sober second thoughts etc.

Piles of threads about pipe turds, pipe design, "high-grade factory", originality etc right now. I'll drop this in here just because I know Premal well enough that I think he can take me on okay without it being personal.

Everyone on this board is wrong except Tyler, who sees the big picture. We can all do whatever we want, and manufacture the crappiest of pipe turds, sell them long-term for for as long as we want with basically no repercussions, and here's why: no one cares. There's 17 million pipe buyers who just don't give a shit, who buy things on a whim, uneducated. They see something half decent at a half-decent (or even not) price and they want it and they buy it.

Recently there's a group of my old pipes available as estates. They are ugly pipes mostly, built half-decent but not refined. Early cut-rod stems. And it shows. And people are happily buying and smoking them. Praising them because.... because they don't know any better? All right.

This forum helped me, I don't have one mentor, I have many, and thank God because I couldn't have got anywhere without the help. And the result is that after a year or three of struggling with the stuff we've all struggled with, I can turn out a pretty good pipe. Lots of people here make technically better pipes than me. Finer shaping, better finish, better blast work. And with the exception of about 3 people, I couldn't look at any of the pipes being made by any of the people on this board and say definitively who made them. They all look the fucking same.

The "rules" as applied to pipe turds lead to uniform Danish-inspired pipes, insipid copies of copies. All of you dumb bastards are making the Chinese version of an AK-47 now. And guess what... people lick 'em up so you keep going. "I'm a REAL artist" you say to yourself, as you manufacture your non-turd pipes. Out of traditional materials, shaped in a certain tradition. Pipes which for the most part are indistinguishable from the next guy's non-turd because you all adhere to the same principles of design and aesthetics. Well done! Well done, I say, for having a mentor, for keeping step, and for learning "how it's done". Well done for another fucking blowfish, another fucking eskimo, just what the world needs. An army of non-turd-makers, all producing identically shiny, identically proportioned pipes because it is right to do so.

I'm gonna go back to making pipes. "Pipe crafting" as one of my pipemaking friends (and another copysmith) called it. Just selling ordingary pipes to people who don't know any better than to buy a stupid BST and smoke it because it pleases them to do so for whatever reason. Maybe the pipe smokes good, maybe they just like me.


Give us all a break, guys. Some pipes are nicer than others, some bits are thinner. Only a few people give a shit, and you can't force them to. There's no onus to make pipes a certain way. If someone can sell turdy pipes for 20 years and get rich, Jesus, good for them.

If buyers were smart, Honda would be the only car manufacturer left. They make better vehicles than anyone else. Doesn't matter. Neons are cheaper, Vipers look cooler. BMWs have cache.... so they all have market share. You can fight it all you like.

(And please, please dear reader, don't take this as a poor-me or a bitter post, it truly isn't at all - pipes and pipe making has gone further for me than I ever imagined. I'm just a little tired of the chorus here and I thought I'd bust it up a bit with a slightly different perception.).

[Charl]

Like with anything, if you want to get better, you need to learn from the best.
One problem though, South Africa is sorta halfway between nowhere and Van Diemen's Land.
Todd, yes, I see your point, but when you want more than just making money with pipes, you get a thirst for knowledge that will never stop.

[sandahlpipe]

Like with anything, if you want to get better, you need to learn from the best.
One problem though, South Africa is sorta halfway between nowhere and Van Diemen's Land.
Todd, yes, I see your point, but when you want more than just making money with pipes, you get a thirst for knowledge that will never stop.

Great points, Charl.

I don't begrudge Todd his share of the pie. He has earned his spot and he's selling decent pipes at a good price. I couldn't put my finger on what bugged me about what Todd said, but I think you hit the nail on the head. There are some of us here who want to keep pushing the envelope, both in big picture areas like refining the shape or in the details like polishing the shank face.

And not everyone starts out pipe making with mad craftsman skills like Sasquatch. Sure, you can learn how to work a lot of tools by watching youtube and reading on this and other forums. But working under the guidance of someone whose work you respect is valuable for putting all the pieces together. Maybe not everyone needs mentorship, but I think more people need it than are willing to admit that they do.

Mentorship also provides a level of accountability. Someone who cares about their reputation isn't going to let you claim them as a mentor unless you're trying to actually take their advice to heart. As a beginner, it's hard to know whom to listen to, especially when there are differing schools of thought. Choosing a mentor helps to align yourself with a single school of thought and simplifies the learning process. Pick a mentor whose work you admire and who will tell you his honest opinion of your work. And one with whose philosophy of pipe making is close to what you aspire to.

If pipe makers forum can take a new pipe maker and help him make good pipes, mentorship (or at least collaboration with others) will help you achieve the next level. In the process, you'll also make a good friend for life.

[Charl]

Someone who cares about their reputation isn't going to let you claim them as a mentor

That rings a bit out of tune for me. It is not suppose to be about "I learned under Mr Blah-blah Bigshot" and neither about I taught "the new Bo". In fact, it should be about and between 2 pipemakers, the one experienced and the other less so. Reputation and/or "claiming" should have absolutely nothing to do with it.
That said, I'm just a guy trying to make pipes in Africa.