Importance of apprenticeship / having a mentor

[sandahlpipe]

Someone who cares about their reputation isn't going to let you claim them as a mentor

That rings a bit out of tune for me. It is not suppose to be about "I learned under Mr Blah-blah Bigshot" and neither about I taught "the new Bo". In fact, it should be about and between 2 pipemakers, the one experienced and the other less so. Reputation and/or "claiming" should have absolutely nothing to do with it.
That said, I'm just a guy trying to make pipes in Africa.

Well the way you took that is a bit out of context. If I'm out here making crappy pipes and I say I learned from Walt, it's not going to reflect well on Walt. Doesn't matter if you learn from the biggest pipe making hotshot or just someone who has been around the block a few times. Mentorship (and I think we're saying the same thing here) isn't about a master making a celebrity out of a nobody, but a master helping the student learn and holding his feet to the fire. If the student refuses the instruction, the master should have every right to claim he never taught the guy.

[Tyler]

Well the way you took that is a bit out of context. If I'm out here making crappy pipes and I say I learned from Walt, it's not going to reflect well on Walt. Doesn't matter if you learn from the biggest pipe making hotshot or just someone who has been around the block a few times. Mentorship (and I think we're saying the same thing here) isn't about a master making a celebrity out of a nobody, but a master helping the student learn and holding his feet to the fire. If the student refuses the instruction, the master should have every right to claim he never taught the guy.

The problem is it doesn't work that way. How can you claim you never taught someone you did teach? When so and so claims on his website to be taught by you, how do you make that go away? Do you lie and deny it on your website? Do you hack his site and erase it? Obviously, you can't do anything about it. He's telling the truth.

The good news is there really isn't a huge risk mentoring someone. Your pipes stand alone, and everyone knows a teacher can't infuse talent where it's lacking in a student. This has happened a fair amount over the last few decades, and while I know some teachers cringe to be "recognized" I'm pretty sure they would all say it doesn't really result in any real damage to their reputation.

[JMG]

If for no other reason, I like the mentoring idea to keep me from ruining anymore blocks of briar. No point trying to reinvent the wheel...why not learn from someone who knows. There's no harm is developing your own style later if you so choose.

[PremalChheda]

Allow me to clarify my scattered writings in the previous posts and add to them with more scattered thoughts. PMF has been a huge help to me and making me a much better pipe maker. It acts like a mentor in a sense. I did not state that a mentor is necessary for everyone, but I do believe everyone will benefit from having a mentor or peers that have extensive experience. You can only get so much from digital communication which may be enough for some. There is always an exception. Everyone here ,except maybe TJ, would definitely benefit and improve even more if you visited with peers or a mentor, just as I would. Last year Tyler lit a bulb in my head that I didn't know was there when he visited. This would not have happened through digital communication. Of course it is not necessary. 95% of my pipe making was self taught without the internet. The rest was a combination of digital, peers, students, & mentors.
When I stated:
"Those that do not have a mentor or do not think they need instruction or help, tend to create pipes with problems. The finish bleeds, loose tenons, fugly shapes, etc... I have seen it many many times. Some are open to suggestion, but many are blind to the feedback from their peers and customers."
I am referring to those that do not seek knowledge, feedback, or advice from peers, mentors, forums, etc. However, there are exceptions.
Also in regards to what I really think a mentor will provide for anyone is mostly help with technical qualities, procedures, understanding of equipment & materials, pipe making process, business process, ethics, marketing, accounting, how not to kill or maim yourself while trying to make a pipe, how to make uber tasty coffee, etc... And most importantly, they will keep your ego in check. Some may only get a few of these things from a mentor or peers.

There is a tendency for the peer's or mentor's style to influence the student's work, but there are exceptions. There can also be vast improvements in design and style by the student's deriving from the mentor's work. A good example is the Ivarssons. Lars took his father's fundamentals and made it better in my opinion.

Sas,
To quote Brian Levine "You are the leading expert on your opinion"

Fire away my friend, it keeps me on my toes. However, I am going to feed Ryan some beans and meat before bedtime at Chicago.

I agree with some of your points and some of Tyler's thoughts on the market for pipes. But I also strongly disagree with a few of your statements. I will clarify in another post.

[PremalChheda]

Well the way you took that is a bit out of context. If I'm out here making crappy pipes and I say I learned from Walt, it's not going to reflect well on Walt. Doesn't matter if you learn from the biggest pipe making hotshot or just someone who has been around the block a few times. Mentorship (and I think we're saying the same thing here) isn't about a master making a celebrity out of a nobody, but a master helping the student learn and holding his feet to the fire. If the student refuses the instruction, the master should have every right to claim he never taught the guy.

The problem is it doesn't work that way. How can you claim you never taught someone you did teach? When so and so claims on his website to be taught by you, how do you make that go away? Do you lie and deny it on your website? Do you hack his site and erase it? Obviously, you can't do anything about it. He's telling the truth.

The good news is there really isn't a huge risk mentoring someone. Your pipes stand alone, and everyone knows a teacher can't infuse talent where it's lacking in a student. This has happened a fair amount over the last few decades, and while I know some teachers cringe to be "recognized" I'm pretty sure they would all say it doesn't really result in any real damage to their reputation.

Just don't pick a bad intentioned, selfish, lazy student And hope they are not deceiving you. I am a bit more wary now, but I have been lucky so far to work with some very good intentioned generous people.

[The Smoking Yeti]

they will keep your ego in check.

Asshole.

[d.huber]

they will keep your ego in check.

Asshole.

Works better for some than others.

[Sasquatch]

One of the things that's starting to emerge in some of these threads is that there's a difference between striving for excellence, assuming excellence, and actually achieving excellence.

That's pretty important, and a mentor or peer group can certainly help with the reality-check side of things.

[PremalChheda]

One of the things that's starting to emerge in some of these threads is that there's a difference between striving for excellence, assuming excellence, and actually achieving excellence.

That's pretty important, and a mentor or peer group can certainly help with the reality-check side of things.

I agree.

I thought my shit(pipes) did not stink back in 2003, but they did. Luckily no one but a mentor saw those pipes.

Even when they started not to stink, there was disappointment in some aspect on every pipe to this day, which allows me to keep improving.

[The Smoking Yeti]

Even when they started not to stink, there was disappointment in some aspect on every pipe to this day, which allows me to keep improving.

I definitely experience disappointments with every pipe I make. I'm not sure if that will ever go away.

[LatakiaLover]

I definitely experience disappointments with every pipe I make. I'm not sure if that will ever go away.

If you're lucky, it won't.

[d.huber]

I definitely experience disappointments with every pipe I make. I'm not sure if that will ever go away.

If you're lucky, it won't.

That ain't luck, it's a way of life.

[RDPowell]

All right. Sober second thoughts etc.

Piles of threads about pipe turds, pipe design, "high-grade factory", originality etc right now. I'll drop this in here just because I know Premal well enough that I think he can take me on okay without it being personal.

Everyone on this board is wrong except Tyler, who sees the big picture. We can all do whatever we want, and manufacture the crappiest of pipe turds, sell them long-term for for as long as we want with basically no repercussions, and here's why: no one cares. There's 17 million pipe buyers who just don't give a shit, who buy things on a whim, uneducated. They see something half decent at a half-decent (or even not) price and they want it and they buy it.

Recently there's a group of my old pipes available as estates. They are ugly pipes mostly, built half-decent but not refined. Early cut-rod stems. And it shows. And people are happily buying and smoking them. Praising them because.... because they don't know any better? All right.

This forum helped me, I don't have one mentor, I have many, and thank God because I couldn't have got anywhere without the help. And the result is that after a year or three of struggling with the stuff we've all struggled with, I can turn out a pretty good pipe. Lots of people here make technically better pipes than me. Finer shaping, better finish, better blast work. And with the exception of about 3 people, I couldn't look at any of the pipes being made by any of the people on this board and say definitively who made them. They all look the fucking same.

The "rules" as applied to pipe turds lead to uniform Danish-inspired pipes, insipid copies of copies. All of you dumb bastards are making the Chinese version of an AK-47 now. And guess what... people lick 'em up so you keep going. "I'm a REAL artist" you say to yourself, as you manufacture your non-turd pipes. Out of traditional materials, shaped in a certain tradition. Pipes which for the most part are indistinguishable from the next guy's non-turd because you all adhere to the same principles of design and aesthetics. Well done! Well done, I say, for having a mentor, for keeping step, and for learning "how it's done". Well done for another fucking blowfish, another fucking eskimo, just what the world needs. An army of non-turd-makers, all producing identically shiny, identically proportioned pipes because it is right to do so.

I'm gonna go back to making pipes. "Pipe crafting" as one of my pipemaking friends (and another copysmith) called it. Just selling ordingary pipes to people who don't know any better than to buy a stupid BST and smoke it because it pleases them to do so for whatever reason. Maybe the pipe smokes good, maybe they just like me.


Give us all a break, guys. Some pipes are nicer than others, some bits are thinner. Only a few people give a shit, and you can't force them to. There's no onus to make pipes a certain way. If someone can sell turdy pipes for 20 years and get rich, Jesus, good for them.

If buyers were smart, Honda would be the only car manufacturer left. They make better vehicles than anyone else. Doesn't matter. Neons are cheaper, Vipers look cooler. BMWs have cache.... so they all have market share. You can fight it all you like.

(And please, please dear reader, don't take this as a poor-me or a bitter post, it truly isn't at all - pipes and pipe making has gone further for me than I ever imagined. I'm just a little tired of the chorus here and I thought I'd bust it up a bit with a slightly different perception.).

I agree with Sas.....all except the Honda thing.
But, I'll always give it my best to make the best pipe I can...........with help from others to guide me.

[ToddJohnson]

Even when they started not to stink, there was disappointment in some aspect on every pipe to this day, which allows me to keep improving.

I definitely experience disappointments with every pipe I make. I'm not sure if that will ever go away.

For you it won't. I'm still 90% pleased by 10% of my pipes, and 10% pleased with the other 90%. Okay, that's a bit of hyperbole, but you get the idea, right? Being really proud of every pipe you make generally means your delusional. It also causes your work to stagnate. To the "they're just pipes" crowd I would simply respond, they're not just pipes. We can disagree about that, but if we do, we're not doing the same thing.

TJ

[d.huber]

For you it won't. I'm still 90% pleased by 10% of my pipes, and 10% pleased with the other 90%. Okay, that's a bit of hyperbole, but you get the idea, right? Being really proud of every pipe you make generally means your delusional. It also causes your work to stagnate. To the "they're just pipes" crowd I would simply respond, they're not just pipes. We can disagree about that, but if we do, we're not doing the same thing.

TJ

That's incredibly comforting to read.