This forum is a scary place

[Tyler]

There's a strong unspoken obligation in this community that making high grade pipes OUGHT to be the goal and I've fought that forever.

I don't share that impression. Perhaps because I am blind, or perhaps because, if it's there, I probably had a hand in creating it. I find pursuit of high grade to be fun.

With that disclaimer in mind, I'll say I personally don't give one whit what someone else pursues in pipe making. Sas has the Grabow crowd locked down, and I'm cheering for him. Ernie has the west coast snobs, and I couldn't be happier. I like the gamut. The nature of this forum is to learn to make, and get better at making, pipes. Where you get off that train is up to you. If you post a pipe asking for critique, you're going to get it, and the standard brought to bear is high(er) grade. The point of this forum is, in my mind, to educate and push. There is certainly no obligation to pursue high grade making, but if you stick around there will be pushing. (And I think that's good.)

The alternative, in my opinion, is the slap-one-another-on-the-back, pipe-making sub-forums on normal pipe boards. Those groups seem to reach an equilibrial of mediocrity that is perfectly fine, but decidedly different than this forum. (Which again, I think is good. No reason to be the same.)

I guess the difference between how you perceive the "push" and how I perceive it is the push is intrinsic to the purpose/culture of the forum (my view), but it is not a moral mandate (your view?). And how I see the push is, slap-one-another-on-the-back, "pretty good man, do better on the next one you hoser."

You and I have talked about this, so I don't think we really disagree. I just wanted to offer a more positive take on the "push."

[Sasquatch]

I feel a lot less push now, but then I've been here awhile, am no longer in awe of everyone else, not afraid of Bruce and Todd, etc.

It's REALLY tough to just up and start making pipes, bring your shitty looking work (that took you 4 days and 2 fingernails) here where it's the worst thing anyone's ever seen (you suppose), and kind of nudge yourself a spot on the bench, you know? The purpose of the forum is brotherly exchange of guild-y ideas, but for a lot of people, it's really intimidating, and you feel like you should only show up here if you want to be the next Bo. Look, for example, at our chronic nagging for people to cut their own stems. The real message? That other shit ain't good enough! So there's a hundred little messages like that. HERE is what we should be doing, son.

I don't think anyone here or anywhere else actually cares what any other pipe maker makes, sells, invents, destroys etc very much. But it's hard to see that from the bottom of the ladder, or maybe more importantly, you just have no real place in the community yet, so you feel, and so it's kind of intimidating.

[Sasquatch]

Luckily, there are open, warm, generous people like you, Tyler, that help things along.

[Sasquatch]

Oh, yeah, and the Grabow shot?

[Tyler]

I feel a lot less push now, but then I've been here awhile, am no longer in awe of everyone else, not afraid of Bruce and Todd, etc.

It's REALLY tough to just up and start making pipes, bring your shitty looking work (that took you 4 days and 2 fingernails) here where it's the worst thing anyone's ever seen (you suppose), and kind of nudge yourself a spot on the bench, you know? The purpose of the forum is brotherly exchange of guild-y ideas, but for a lot of people, it's really intimidating, and you feel like you should only show up here if you want to be the next Bo. Look, for example, at our chronic nagging for people to cut their own stems. The real message? That other shit ain't good enough! So there's a hundred little messages like that. HERE is what we should be doing, son.

I don't think anyone here or anywhere else actually cares what any other pipe maker makes, sells, invents, destroys etc very much. But it's hard to see that from the bottom of the ladder, or maybe more importantly, you just have no real place in the community yet, so you feel, and so it's kind of intimidating.

Fair enough.

[Tyler]

Oh, yeah, and the Grabow shot?

I can't post and not take a shot.

I almost didn't though because it sort of implicitly makes your case. I. Just. Couldn't. Resist.

Sorry, it's that warmth in me coming out.

[LatakiaLover]

You're right, Sas, he is the mean one.

[Massis]

I feel a lot less push now, but then I've been here awhile, am no longer in awe of everyone else, not afraid of Bruce and Todd, etc.

It's REALLY tough to just up and start making pipes, bring your shitty looking work (that took you 4 days and 2 fingernails) here where it's the worst thing anyone's ever seen (you suppose), and kind of nudge yourself a spot on the bench, you know? The purpose of the forum is brotherly exchange of guild-y ideas, but for a lot of people, it's really intimidating, and you feel like you should only show up here if you want to be the next Bo. Look, for example, at our chronic nagging for people to cut their own stems. The real message? That other shit ain't good enough! So there's a hundred little messages like that. HERE is what we should be doing, son.

I don't think anyone here or anywhere else actually cares what any other pipe maker makes, sells, invents, destroys etc very much. But it's hard to see that from the bottom of the ladder, or maybe more importantly, you just have no real place in the community yet, so you feel, and so it's kind of intimidating.

Speaking from somewhere at the bottom of that ladder (maybe one or 2 steps up?) I'd have to say I agree with you. Posting pipes I made on the dutch smoker forums always is a pat on the back, posting it here is being floored by guys who know what they're doing (or rather good at pretending to be?).
But in the end, I find there's more to learn here

[Tyler]

I feel a lot less push now, but then I've been here awhile, am no longer in awe of everyone else, not afraid of Bruce and Todd, etc.

It's REALLY tough to just up and start making pipes, bring your shitty looking work (that took you 4 days and 2 fingernails) here where it's the worst thing anyone's ever seen (you suppose), and kind of nudge yourself a spot on the bench, you know? The purpose of the forum is brotherly exchange of guild-y ideas, but for a lot of people, it's really intimidating, and you feel like you should only show up here if you want to be the next Bo. Look, for example, at our chronic nagging for people to cut their own stems. The real message? That other shit ain't good enough! So there's a hundred little messages like that. HERE is what we should be doing, son.

I don't think anyone here or anywhere else actually cares what any other pipe maker makes, sells, invents, destroys etc very much. But it's hard to see that from the bottom of the ladder, or maybe more importantly, you just have no real place in the community yet, so you feel, and so it's kind of intimidating.

Speaking from somewhere at the bottom of that ladder (maybe one or 2 steps up?) I'd have to say I agree with you. Posting pipes I made on the dutch smoker forums always is a pat on the back, posting it here is being floored by guys who know what they're doing (or rather good at pretending to be?).
But in the end, I find there's more to learn here

Honestly, that's what makes this place special. Hopefully, it's done with a genuine desire to help, and I think all who've been around here a little while would agree it does help.

It's not just Dutch forums that give a pat on the back, it's pretty much all of them. Praise, as it turns out, it easy to find. Honest critique is not. Again, I hope (and believe) it's benevolent critique. That is a rare and valuable thing.

Said another way, this is a group that will let you know your fly is down instead of letting you walk around not knowing.

I don't know what it's like to be new here. I hear, and can imagine, it's intimidating. I don't know the cure for that. I'm not sure there needs to be one, but if you guys do I'd be interested in hearing why and how you think it could be solved. I care about this being the best place to learn pipe making on the Internet. I'm wide open to ideas for making this a better place.

[Massis]

Oh don't get me wrong Tyler, I do fully agree with you. Finding praise is easy and deceiving.
I've lurked on these forums so long, that I have to hold back when reading other forums' pipemaking sections and not go "but the shank/stem connection has a gap!!!" every other pipe I see, because people there aren't looking for that kind of critique.

(that, and the fact that my pipes are galaxies away from being perfect so who am I to judge?)

The critique I get here is exactly why I keep coming back, in hopes of getting better at this pipecrafting thing!

[Oakbear]

I've lurked on here a good while, and just started posting a bit.

I find the quality and expertise here a bit intimidating, which probably slowed me starting to post.
I find that there is a push for improvement and understanding what makes a high quality pipe, and certainly feel that translated into my own work (although i still have a long way to go).

On it's own those elements might make me back off, but it's also coupled with warmth, openness and humour. That's why i come here, to learn and improve, knowing that people will try and help, but also CAN help due to their knowledge and honesty, and not just pat me on the back.

There's tons of forums and groups where i could post my shitty pipes and have everyone tell me i'm a genius. This one is the only one i have found which tells it how it is, and how to improve.
In hindsight being cautious to post has been good, as i have taken the time to read and learn. I've not posted for critique yet, not because i'm scared any more, but because i have learned enough to critique my own work and find it lacking. When i can't find much i'm doing wrong, then i'll let you fine folks rip it to shreds!

[LatakiaLover]

This one is the only one i have found which tells it how it is, and how to improve.

This one is the only one on Planet Earth which tells it how it is, and how to improve.

FTFY

[wooda2008]

I appreciate the culture here. Bring your best, and the members tell you how you might improve.

It's the next step for new makers that have gone as far as their own eyes and perspective can take them.

My pipes so far aren't worth putting up here for critique. I need to up my game and solve the glaring problems before wasting board space.

[mcgregorpipes]

the way I use this board is to read almost everything and post only if there's something I think would add to the conversation and the archive. there's great value in the threads that are super critical and offer a variety of fixes and suggestions, like lessons on how to train you eye. I can read a critique and think about my own pipes and how that advice might apply or fix or improve a design, its like watching a lecture. without having to post my own work, I feel like every pipe has been critiqued on here and I imagine that's the value for anyone who reads the thread.

[wdteipen]

I guess I just don't get the intimidating part. I started here back when Todd Johnson would give brazenly honest critiques and occasional rants on new guys and you had the likes of Bruce Weaver, Rad Davis, Jack Howell, Tyler Beard, Scott Thile, Kurt Huhn and many more very talented and established makers regularly contributing. I never really felt intimidated and my early work was total crap. Ones feelings are their own responsibility so long as someone isn't blatantly being mean and nasty to them. And even still they have the choice to get butt hurt or brush that person off as being a dick at that particular moment. This isn't a place for fragile egos and nor should it be. Like Tyler said, it's purpose is to be the best place on the internet to learn and improve at making pipes. Period. That requires a bit of a gut check for anyone seeking advice. I don't think the site or any of it's members owes anyone an apology for trying to help someone improve and reach the highest potential they can.

[Massis]

I agree Wayne, there's no apology owed here by anyone. But in my opinion there's a major difference between feelings getting hurt or finding something intimidating.

Having to give a speech in front of 500 people for example is rather intimidating, but there's no feelings getting hurt or people being mean. It's just "scary in a good way" because you wonder what everyone will say/think of you.

The same is valid here: it's the anticipation and wondering that makes it intimidating mostly, not the actual comments you receive.

[wdteipen]

I guess it's not intimidating if you're realistic about the quality of your work. I've always tried to be realistic about my work so when it gets shredded I'm expecting it. The guy who thinks his first pipe is the best thing since sliced bread should probably only solicit critique from his momma.

[sandahlpipe]

The guy who thinks his first pipe is the best thing since sliced bread should probably only solicit critique from his momma.

+1

Love that quote.

[wdteipen]

This whole discussion about PMF being intimidating reminds me of the movie "What About Bob?"

Baby step to log on to PMF. Baby steps to click on a post. Baby steps to read the thread. Baby steps to post pictures of my pipe. Baby steps to hit the submit button. Baby steps to read what people think about my pipe...........


Don't be a nancy. If you're serious and you want to get better, post your work! Then consider what's being said about your work. Mull it over. Look at more professional pipes. Look at your pipes. Figure out why your pipe doesn't look the same and work to make the necessary adjustments.

[scotties22]

I'm with you Wayne. This place never intimidated me. Then again, I'm not a normal or sane person so maybe I don't count.

I'll play the "girl" card here for a minute. If I (a girl) can feel accepted here from the beginning, why oh why, would a dude ever feel intimidated by this place or the other dudes here?

Come on, it's not like anyone is going to get smited (smote?) or anything like that for posting one of their first pipes. I have never even heard the phrase "you should quit now".

If, after lurking for a while (as I think most do), you login and don't have a feel for the place already you probably have bigger problems. It just doesn't take that long to learn the personalities here, pick up who you should listen to and who is full of shit. We are all responsible for our own emotions and feelings. If you can't take a criticism that you need to improve something then (again Wayne is right) just ask your Mom. Why do you think I have my husband and kids and mom???? I get all the compliments and ego stroking I need from them. Everyone here does a really good job of telling it straight and helping me improve.