pipemakersforum.com

Since boredom has doubtless returned by now, and ennui is a horrible thing...

Why, TylerBoard, is acrylic a second class citizen in the pipestem world?

-- It's superior to vulcanite when it comes to oxidation (always vs. never)

-- It's equal to vulcanite regarding "shape-ability" (anything you can make with one you can make with the other)

-- It's inferior to vulcanite because...?

The only downsides I know of for the consumer is that it is a bit more fragile than ebonite and it is harder and some don't like the mouth feel. From a maker's standpoint, it's tougher to drill, turn and somewhat tougher to hand shape.

For me, it's that acrylic is harder on the teeth than ebonite. Some acrylics are nearly as soft, but I wouldn't say that's often the case.

The other thing is that acrylic is a bit more tough to get shiny. The last acrylic stem I made took me a solid hour longer just getting all the scratches out. Then fingerprints made the stem cloudy much faster than on ebonite.

I think ebonite has a more mystical feeling to it, a certain je ne sais quoi that provokes a very positive, inexplicable emotional response.

But seriously, I don't like the hardness of regular acrylic, I dislike holding an acrylic mouthpiece between my teeth. If there is a softer kind I don't know how to find it and where to source it. Also as far as I know bending can be quite difficult.
It may sound like a stupid argument, but personally I think ebonite is in a way more "natural", since it is made out of India rubber. Acrylic is synthetized (in some magical way) from petroleum and it seems a more complex process, further detached from any naturally occuring substance.

I wouldn't hesitate to use a colored acrylic for a mouthpiece if I wanted to (for aesthetic purposes), but as long as we're talking about black colored materials I'll stay with the good old smell of sulphur.

I'm going to smell sulphur anyway, (in the long run) so I have developed a liking for it's smell. It shapes easier, looks better, feels better, So unless the customer just has to have acrylic, I'll use ebonite.

Acrylic sucks to drill, although i find it much easier to polish. It is also much harder to turn an integral tenon with acrylic not to mention the squeek that happens when you rotate an acrylic stem into the mortise.

Personally I like acrylic. I use both it and ebonite. With the right tools it is no more difficult to work with. Costs less than ebonite.
I don't have the stats to back this up but I bet there are more acrylic stems than ebonite coming out of Europe.
BriarWorks is using a lot of acrylic stems.
If you can't get a shine on it then you must be polishing with an SOS pad.

To be honest George, I use ebonite cus' I just do. I know some people complain about how much harder acrylic is on the teeth, which is the main reason I haven't delved into it much. I'm constantly looking for a really good amber acrylic though- like the kind Tonni uses- I still haven't found it

I think when I make a pipe for myself, I'm going to do an acrylic mouthpiece.

FWIW ---

I make about equal numbers of vulcanite and acrylic, and don't find one easier to work with than the other. They're just a bit different. Blondes and brunettes. Allow for the differences and no drama.

Comfort-wise---the "tooth hardness" thing---is much more a matter of shape than material, I think. The early acrylic pipes were price-point-sensitive ones instead of high grades, and were given thick, chunky, blocky stems to save labor costs. We've all seen 'em, and many of us have smoked 'em. Truly dreadful. But when shaped with the same delicacy and attention to detail as a high grade vulcanite stem, there's no comfort difference that I can detect. I think "thick between teeth" translates as "overly hard" in the part of human brains that processes such things.

It's probably the early acrylic being on sub-premium pipes---plus the whole glitter & party color possibilities tackiness---that screwed it for high end collectors early on.

Too bad, really. Because a well made acrylic stem looks and feels no different, and never oxidizes.

It's what I'd use by default if I made whole pipes, I think.

I might add market forces to the list of cons. Pipe makers do tend to make what customers buy. And since most customers expect ebonite, that's what we make most of the time. I'm sure if the market wanted acrylic, you'd see makers start using it more. It's driving a hard bargain when you try convincing someone to buy expensive pieces of plastic that they are getting a good value. But when they hear high quality German Ebonite, it sounds more like what you'd expect on a high grade pipe. Even if it's just a piece of rubber. These associations are hard to argue with as an artisan.

sandahlpipe wrote:I might add market forces to the list of cons. Pipe makers do tend to make what customers buy. And since most customers expect ebonite, that's what we make most of the time. I'm sure if the market wanted acrylic, you'd see makers start using it more. It's driving a hard bargain when you try convincing someone to buy expensive pieces of plastic that they are getting a good value. But when they hear high quality German Ebonite, it sounds more like what you'd expect on a high grade pipe. Even if it's just a piece of rubber. These associations are hard to argue with as an artisan.

All true.

Which is equal parts sad and funny when you hear as much bitching and moaning as I do from guys who are tired of dealing with oxidation.

sandahlpipe wrote:I might add market forces to the list of cons. Pipe makers do tend to make what customers buy. And since most customers expect ebonite, that's what we make most of the time. I'm sure if the market wanted acrylic, you'd see makers start using it more. It's driving a hard bargain when you try convincing someone to buy expensive pieces of plastic that they are getting a good value. But when they hear high quality German Ebonite, it sounds more like what you'd expect on a high grade pipe. Even if it's just a piece of rubber. These associations are hard to argue with as an artisan.

I think Jeremiah has it. For some reason, possibly the ones George previously mentioned the pipe collecting world associates acrylic with cheap. Askwith has done a good job of destroying this myth to a certain extent but it still exists. As a flipside to this, I know several collectors who won't buy a pipe with ebonite. Some because of the oxidation and some because they swear they can taste sulfur no matter how high a grade of german ebonite it is.

My feeling is that collectors like to fixate on these things as a way of saying "My collection is better than yours." or shoeing how refined their tastes are. There is a little of this going around right now in terms of delrin vs. integral tenons.

I think the main difference would be comfortability. Acrylic is plastic, Vulcanite is rubber. Correct?

Dnemets wrote:I think the main difference would be comfortability. Acrylic is plastic, Vulcanite is rubber. Correct?

No

Yes, Yes

No/Yes

sandahlpipe wrote:For me, it's that acrylic is harder on the teeth than ebonite. Some acrylics are nearly as soft, but I wouldn't say that's often the case.

The other thing is that acrylic is a bit more tough to get shiny. The last acrylic stem I made took me a solid hour longer just getting all the scratches out. Then fingerprints made the stem cloudy much faster than on ebonite.

For me, Acrylic is much easier to get shiny and I do not have to sand as much as ebonite. Takes less time really because of the less sanding.

LatakiaLover wrote:FWIW ---

I make about equal numbers of vulcanite and acrylic, and don't find one easier to work with than the other. They're just a bit different. Blondes and brunettes. Allow for the differences and no drama.

Comfort-wise---the "tooth hardness" thing---is much more a matter of shape than material, I think. The early acrylic pipes were price-point-sensitive ones instead of high grades, and were given thick, chunky, blocky stems to save labor costs. We've all seen 'em, and many of us have smoked 'em. Truly dreadful. But when shaped with the same delicacy and attention to detail as a high grade vulcanite stem, there's no comfort difference that I can detect. I think "thick between teeth" translates as "overly hard" in the part of human brains that processes such things.

It's probably the early acrylic being on sub-premium pipes---plus the whole glitter & party color possibilities tackiness---that screwed it for high end collectors early on.

Too bad, really. Because a well made acrylic stem looks and feels no different, and never oxidizes.

It's what I'd use by default if I made whole pipes, I think.

I'm going to take the road fork that leads into the dark forest of no-return and agree 100% with George. I went and dug thru my pipes from eons ago and found a couple of Italian made pipes that I had purchased from Tinder Box in K.C. One was an Oom Paul and the other was a Heinz 57. Both have acrylic stems just as Mr. Latakia described: thick and clunky. Fast forward to 2012 and the "Flaming Skull" poker that I made with an acrylic stem utilizing dimensions that are in concert with what one would look for in a quality ebonite stem. I unfortunately do not have a closeup of the button. I kept the pipe because of its unique "image" on the bowl and I smoke it regularly. Suffice to say it is quite comfortable. The button is .650 wide and a little over .150 thick in front. In addition to no oxidation, the bite marks are much less pronounced as they are on my ebonite stems.

LatakiaLover wrote:the "tooth hardness" thing---is much more a matter of shape than material, I think. The early acrylic pipes were price-point-sensitive ones instead of high grades, and were given thick, chunky, blocky stems to save labor costs

That's not true in my opinion. Hardness is just hardness, the shape of the bite zone is a separate topic.
I have an industrial pipe with a very nicely shaped acrylic mouthpiece that has a thickness of 3,8mm at the bite- perfectly acceptable even in high grade pipes (the button isn't too tall, the shape isn't clunky, just a very well made mouthpiece. The draw sucks, but that's unrelated). Still this pipe feels uncomfortable to me. It makes a "click" sound against the teeth and it feels hard, despite the fact that it's shaped correctly.

W.Pastuch wrote:
That's not true in my opinion. Hardness is just hardness, the shape of the bite zone is a separate topic.
I have an industrial pipe with a very nicely shaped acrylic mouthpiece that has a thickness of 3,8mm at the bite- perfectly acceptable even in high grade pipes (the button isn't too tall, the shape isn't clunky, just a very well made mouthpiece. The draw sucks, but that's unrelated). Still this pipe feels uncomfortable to me. It makes a "click" sound against the teeth and it feels hard, despite the fact that it's shaped correctly.

"Correctly" doesn't necessarily mean a stem fits your particular teeth & mouth. Fit is a very individual thing.

If you get the chance, make a stem from each material that are dimensionally identical and then compare their "subjective" hardness. I predict you'll be surprised at the result.

My limited experience so far has been that acrylics aren't any harder to work with, shine better, and many well made acrylics feel the same in the teeth as ebonite. The ones I've worked with even pass the click test.

This may sound funny, but I prefer the shine of ebonite. It's got a softer luster and doesn't look like a piece of plastic. Maybe that's just the traditionalist in me.

I find acrylic harder and less forgiving to work with. It can be chippy, it doesn't shape quite as easily lathed or with hand methods. So it's tough to do really fine shaping work with it. But as a stem material? Yeah, 100% superior performance. There is a crowd of pipe smokers who literally have no idea that their pipes taste like sulphur - smoking old beat up vulcanite stems and that's just "how pipes taste". Then these guys will get a pipe with an acrylic stem and :WOW: it's a revelation to them. "I can't believe how nice that tobacco tastes in this pipe."

I'm also 100% convinced that you should be using delrin or teflon inserts as tenons for acrylic stems. If you aren't, you're pipes are not as good as they could be.