A Studdy Ingrain - "The Tilted Pot Story" by Mike Messer

[bregolad]

P.S. Somebody, stop me!

tell us how

[Dixie_piper]

Just my 2 cents worth here; but I've been looking through Rad's website for months now. And I've been impressed with the quality pipes he sells for a reasonable price considering that he's been pipe maker of the year. It speaks volumes for his character and respect for pipe smokers everywhere.
That's not to say anyone else is over priced, but I've seen more than a handful of fairly accomplished makers selling in the same price range with no luck.
There is much to be said for humility, not only in pipe making but in all things. This is not in any way intended to show my opinion on Mike's pricing, but more so to show respect to Rad and other makers who exhibit sch humble qualities, and give thanks for their making it feasable for the "average Joe" to lay hands on a quality artisan pipe.
My hat is off to you kind Sirs
Mike, I favor Tug the most of the pipes shown

[TimGeorge]

On the price side of things I have taken the opposite approach. I started selling my pipes after I had made only five, the pipes were sold as the early pipes of a new pipemaker and I have kept my customers up to date on new methods I was using and how my work was improving. I took my customers on the journey with me and they have stayed.

As of now I have sold 96 pipes, the most expensive being a commission pipe that went for $140, my average selling price is $70,which even my customers say is below their worth. But I have 82 very happy customers who are spreading the word. In January I’ll be raising my prices because my pipes are now that much better, it won’t be a big increase though.

For the record, this is exactly the approach I have used and it is working well. I am at about the one year mark of part-time pipemaking and have sold about 25 for an average of 120 or so and plan to go up a bit in January. Happy, repeat customers spreading the word and getting your name out there is what it is all about in the first few years, along with fully understanding the fact that there is still much to be improved upon. I am just pleased to be breaking even more or less quickly, and happy to have some happy customers. Mostly, I look forward to the next pipe, pleased that it will be smoked somewhere most likely unless I sand through to the bowl or otherwise screw it up badly. For me, as basically a hobbyist, I just want the option to make some money sometime in the future, and a slow build I think is how you get there. Very hard to come straight in at the top, and (no offense intended) egotistical to think you might be able to do so.

Regards,
Tim
http://www.handcraftedpipes.com

[Mike Messer]

...
..(1) The lines of the shank fudge out (top and bottom) as they approach the bowl, and if you compare that with the hard (measured even) lines of the stem, it's a contrast without purpose, and any pipe maker and more importantly any pipe collector is going to see that, and in this case, the net effect is a pipe with
...(2) "amateur" shaping tendencies.
...(3) The thickness of the bowl, the thickness of the shank (especially at the bowl), and the way the piece presents, particularly given that it is
...(4) JUST enough asymmetrical to kind of throw a guy.....

...(5) I'll be honest, when I look at that pipe, that's exactly the kind of thing I am currently trying to get beyond as an artist. I'm not saying I could do a better pot. In fact, lots of my pots look a hell of a lot like that, bowl shape (pick your side) shank size, everything, and the reason for that is that I'm NOT a very good pipemaker. Maybe I underprice my stuff a little bit, but when I look at what a guy can buy for $200.00 bucks or $300.00, damn, you can get a fucking serious pipe for that kind of money. If you are careful, you could get a couple. Mastro de Paja makes nice pipes for 150 bucks.

...(6) Price yourself against Cavicchi, perhaps - http://www.smokingpipes.com/pipes/new/c ... t_id=67261
That's a helluva a piece of briar for 330.

...(7)That's the reality. I notice that your other pipes are still for sale, and I'm not saying this to spite your or throw something in your face, but having pipes for sale and having pipes sold is a difference that you seem not to have a great deal of appreciation for.

I edited your critique and added reference numbers and my responses below.
You know I have a lot of respect for your opinion and ideas, and always want to hear them in detail. But okay, it just took me a while to get clear about it.

(1) That's the camera angle. It aiming down at an angle, and what you're seeing is the curve out on the side where the shank meets the bowl, and it does fudge out a little there, but this is not uncommon.
(I edited this later...I wasn't sure, so I pulled the pipe and examined it to verify this)

(2) I approach pipemaking as an art form, not as a professional, but "not professional" is not the same thing as "amateur."

(3) The shank is a bit thick, 3/4." Cylindrical, except flattened a bit on the bottom, and very straight. It's a big pipe, 1-11/16" dia. bowl with a .98" diameter chamber, and wall thickness is .35" The Wall thickness on the Cavicchi you mentioned is .40" and his is a smaller pipe....82" dia. chamber. I think a shank like his would look skinny on my pipe, which is patterned after the Jess Chonowitsch Smooth Billiard, I mentioned.

(4) It's really hard to show this with a camera, because the eye does not know what it is looking at in a camera image. It's deceptive.

(5) "Let the force guide you, Luke" I am trying to be very careful.

(6) According to Pipedia, "Cavicchi makes 600 pipes a year" (in his spare time?). That's really cranking out some pipes. I will make no more than 25 a year, and I'm working full-time with overtime. I can't sell them for 300 bucks. Me and Cavicchi are just not in the same category.

(7) I'm not real worried about it...that reality that you speak of.

But, despite my counter-thoughts, thanks, Sasquatch, a hell-of-a-lot for the serious critique.
I mean it. Thanks.
M.M.

[Mike Messer]

(1) Actually, "mouthpiece" or "stem" are terms used by all pipemakers.
(2) Nonetheless, I realize you're a free spirit, a non conformist, an innovator, a true original, and I don't want to do anything to stifle your rogue creativity.
(3) Regarding the pipe, I think it very nice for a beginner's effort, but it's tough to say without knowing the Shore D hardness. The stem looks to have straight lines and sharp edges--the saddle looks nicely cut in--and the finish looks smooth and shiny. Overall though, I think it's too chunky to seem elegant, and too diminutive to have any real masculinity.
(4)There are tool marks on the face of the stem, and the face of the shank looks overworked and
(5) out of round.
(6) The story about how it tilts, and therefore must be compared to fine works of art is complete nonsense. This is why I hate to see people comment on their own work.
(7) When you make a wonky pipe, either fix it or just say "Aaw fiddlesticks," and sell it to a buddy.
(8) I also checked the price, and while I'm all for carvers getting a good wage for their work, this simply doesn't have the lines of a $700 pipe. I think if you dropped the price by about $450 you would be in the right neighborhood. Pricing is tough, though. It's tough for me, it's tough for Lars, and it's tough for everyone here who's ever made a pipe they're proud enough to sell. The likelihood, though, of someone dropping seven hundred dollars on a wonky pot by a guy they've never heard of isn't good. Perhaps you don't care about getting your work out into the marketplace, and that's fine, but if you do, you might want to rethink some things.

I hope you've found this constructive. Please do get me that Shore D hardness.

TJ

Thanks, Todd, for the critique. I honestly think you are a great pipemaker. I value your critique, and have a great deal of respect for you, except when I'm being an ass, and then I am just, ...being an ass. I'm trying to cut down on that a lot.

I edited your post, not to alter it's content, but to respond to specific ideas in it, to which
I added reference numbers. My responses, below.

(1) I don't know where I got the term "Tip," but I am definitely going to stop using it.
(2) I don't think I'm a free spirit ...or a rogue, I'm trying to build on classic, conventional, designs, materials, and methods, and maybe with some art spin added, if I can.
(3) Thank's for the, "very nice," but Shore D 85, I think, "for a beginner", not exactly. And thanks for the detailed observations compliments and opinions. The too big, too small, I don't know what to say, except thanks, but no thanks IMO.
(4) The tool marks on the faces... What I've been doing is turning the faces on the shank and "STEM" perfectly flat and perpendicular to the centerline, and then only lightly sanding them, 400 on a block, very briefly, and then on up to finish and polish. This way I get a much better fit when the pipe is assembled, no light cracks. I could definitely improve the finish there, but I haven't worked out a way to do it while maintaining perfectly flat and perpendicular to the centerline.
(5) Its elliptical on the bottom, for sure, and the flat area of the stem is off center, low, by design.
(6) I always liked Richard Serra's ideas, more than his physical works. I made the reference, to give credit to him, not to draw anything from him. At this stage I am allowing myself to be influenced by other people's work, and I think I should, necessarily, give them credit.
(7) A bit harsh, I think.
(8) I will probably make no more than 25 pipes a year, and I'm working full-time with overtime. I just can't sell them cheap.

(same thing I said to Sasquatch)
But despite my counter-thoughts, thanks Todd, a hell-of-a-lot for the serious critique.
I mean it. Thanks, and yes, very constructive.
Thanks, again.
M.M.

[Mike Messer]

P.S. Somebody, stop me!

tell us how

cute

[bregolad]

Kidding aside, I think that to understand the price discussion, one's opinion about intrinsic pipe value must be evaluated. For me, when buying a pipe, two things are an issue.
1.) quality
2.) branding..or consistency, if you will
Quality is self-explanatory. By branding, I only mean some basis to "assume" quality. I.e. "all my friends swear by such and such a brand..." The point is, most people don't consider the time spent making the pipe as a factor of price (whether they are correct is neither here nor there), they only consider the quality, mostly depending on brand. I could spend 40 hours on a pipe and get $150 for it, and Jess could spend 1.5 hours and get $1,000.

If you think that your pipes are worth what you're asking, more power to you. But I don't think anyone should pay themselves $200/hr if they are only worth $25/hr. I think the market will correct this mistake.

[KurtHuhn]

(8) I will probably make no more than 25 pipes a year, and I'm working full-time with overtime. I just can't sell them cheap.

I think this is probably the root of your problem. The single biggest improvement you can make, is to figure out how to be incredibly efficient with your time, and very fast with your tools.

That's the difference between a guy who makes really nice pipes but does them all by hand or without the experience of a solid workflow, and one who makes them with the aid of experience using his tools and a well developed workflow.

Consider this knife:


I have, on the high end *maybe* 3 hours invested in that knife - not counting the hands-off time in the tempering oven or waiting for epoxy to cure. I've been told that it was "impossible" to make that knife in only one afternoon, and yet, there it sits. I know guys who are just learning will spend days on a knife like that, mostly because they're unfamiliar with the tools, don't have the workflow down, lack the practice time needed to be efficient, etc.

On average, I spend about that amount of time on any given pipe. It's just the experience and workflow that determines how fast it happens. When I first started making pipes, it would take me a couple of days to get a single pipe completed - because I simply didn't have the experience, practice, or knowledge to do it any faster. At the time I was using pretty much the same set of tools I'm using now, with a couple minor differences. It's just practice.

That said, I think the point should be fairly clear. Your customers aren't going to want to pay for your inexperience or lack of workflow. To you the pipe is worth a thousand dollars because that's what you've determined your time is worth based on what you expect to get per hour (assuming). However, you simply can't price your work that way when you're first starting out. Your work isn't worth that much. Partly due to not having an established name, and partly due to not being efficient at what you're doing.

Don't get me wrong, you've made a few good pipes. They are probably (I can't say for certain without seeing them in person) worthy of sale to the general public. And for your time I'd expect you to more than make up the cost of materials, as well as some for your time. The problem is, I if I had a spare $1,000 burning a hole in my pocket, I would opt to purchase two or three pipes from well known and established makers before dropping whole nut on one pipe from a guy that the rest of the collecting world isn't even aware of.

The price of a pipe is not directly related to the amount of time that the maker spent on it. The price of a pipe is set by the market, and the maker has to determine how to whittle his time down enough to make it worth his while.

HOWEVER! The preceding two sentences are only true IF the maker is established and well known. If you're just starting out, you're never going to be able to sell pipes for what your time investment would demand. For this reason, it is always very rare for new makers to be able to make the jump to full-time pipe making.

As a new maker, it's best to resign yourself to building a name and recognition, selling your pipes to basically cover the purchase of more materials and some tooling, practicing to get good at it, and gaining experience with your tools.

[Mike Messer]

I appreciate all of you who have taken the time to comment. I can fully appreciate what all of you are saying about pricing, time spent, market value, and so forth. I, also, think the pipemakers who price low, for the "little guy" are very Noble, indeed.
Personally, the pipe I smoke the most is a little Maple Horn, with a 1/2" crack in the back of the bowl, worth about 25 cents, maybe.

I don't smoke my nice briar pipes. I put them on my website and show them off, and I want to sell them to a collector who will appreciate them, and preserve them. And, yea, my prices are high. I know that, and I'm willing to let them sit for a while, forever, if necessary, but hopefully, at some point in the not too distant future, the collectors will catch on, and I can sell some pipes. We'll see.

[RadDavis]

Good Luck with that.

You are awesome.

Rad

[SimeonTurner]

Good Luck with that.

You are awesome.

Rad

Im inspired. My pipes are now 1 million dollars a piece. Eventually the collectors will realize what they are missing, and when they do I will soooooo be laughing at all you morons who tried to follow a typical/logical business model. I think I'll use my first million to buy all of the pipes each of you make so I can run them through my garbage disposal. That'll teach you.

Im also now selling my own turds. It's an art, you see, and I put a lot of hard work and effort into every one. My website will be published very shortly, though I will likely edit it frequently, so if you see a price you like, strike fast...it may double as my medication wears off (or on, depending).

[Sasquatch]

ONE HUNDRED BILLION DOLLARS!


Muhahahaha

[ToddJohnson]

Mike, I think we can all agree that you are an idiot and an asshole. What's really fun, though, is to take bets on whether or not you are for real. I've seen enough psychological train wrecks in my life to believe that someone like you could indeed exist in reality. It's fun to read your posts in the same way it might be fun to check back on a molding cup of coffee day after day to see what foul, grotesque filth it's spawned in one's absence. After a few days, though, it just gets old and disgusting. At that point, it needs to go into the trash for good. I'm just sayin' is all.

TJ

[Sasquatch]

I see the analogy to coffee-fungus, but it lacks a certain pathos. To me, it's more like checking mouse traps. What if you got one? What if it's not dead? Oh shit! I wish this had never happened!

[Mike Messer]

Mike, I think we can all agree that you are an idiot and an asshole. What's really fun, though, is to take bets on whether or not you are for real. I've seen enough psychological train wrecks in my life to believe that someone like you could indeed exist in reality. It's fun to read your posts in the same way it might be fun to check back on a molding cup of coffee day after day to see what foul, grotesque filth it's spawned in one's absence. After a few days, though, it just gets old and disgusting. At that point, it needs to go into the trash for good. I'm just sayin' is all.

TJ

You should feel comfortable, now that you are a great pipemaker. So, I can't figure it, why you feel you have to conjure up this degrading pile of dog shit (about Shore D zero) slander?
Maybe, you're just bored, and this is what you earthlings call "fun," verbal combat, like a sport.

I would like to place a bet, but then, that would be cheating, since I already know the answer.

I haven't seen any train wrecks, psychological or otherwise, but one of my uncles was a railroad engineer, and I drove a diesel locomotive, once, when I was nine years old. It was a trip. They're easy to drive, since they don't have a steering wheel. Pulling the chain and blowing the horn was the best part.

P.S. You guys are frigging nuts.

[wdteipen]

Well, I've got to say I'm fascinated. Not in your work, Mike, because it's ordinary and I don't mean that in a disresectful way. I'm just being honest as many here have tried to be with you. I'm more fascinated to watch and see just how much you can alienate established and influencial pipemakers through your disrespect and lack of humility in receiving honest criticism from folks that have more experience than you. I just hope you "get it" before it's too late because you do have potential. In this niche hobby though, if you keep this up, you'll need to change your name to sell your work. Besides, Todd J. has the market cornered for a-holes that make and sell high grade pipes so that angle is covered.

One thing that Todd has over you is that he actually makes high grade pipes (and he's actually not really an a-hole from what I hear.) You can't just be any ole a-hole that makes pipes and expect to succeed.

[Sasquatch]

Now you tell me Wayne?

Mike, "slander" is ordinarily construed as being false statements injurious to one's character. But I see now what has happened. Awhile ago there was a guy whose screen name here was Mike Messer or something like that, and he was very technically oriented, and did all kinds of testing that no one but himself cared about, including the shore-D hardness of various stems. All pipemakers know that ebonite is softer than lucite, and no pipemaker cares how hard a pre-molded vulcanite stem is, as I'm sure a serious, professional pipemaker like you is aware.

So sorry if there's been any confusion of the two Mike Messers, and I'm not sure how it would come about that two unrelated people could have the same screen name on a forum... a glitch in the matrix I guess. But the "first" Mike Messer was an absolute scream in that rather than make pipes he liked to argue with pipe makers about how to make pipes, even going so far as to suggest that high grade pipe makers of repute would never use ebonite that smelled bad for their expensive collectible pipes, the direct corollary being that the pipemakers here who DO use stinky old ebonite for their expensive collectible pipes were somehow making an egregious faux pas. A serious, professional pipemaker like yourself, Mike, can see how incredibly fucking funny that is, and that's just one example.

So there is in fact no slander, Mike, and not intentionally are we mocking you. In fact we are referencing a completely different person who used to post here, and whom made, shall we say, a lasting impression, if not a very good one.

But I must say....

sometimes you remind me of him.

[ToddJohnson]

Besides, Todd J. has the market cornered for a-holes that make and sell high grade pipes so that angle is covered.

One thing that Todd has over you is that he actually makes high grade pipes (and he's actually not really an a-hole from what I hear.) You can't just be any ole a-hole that makes pipes and expect to succeed.

Well, I used to have it "cornered," but then Weaver has started eating into my market share. Plus, there's Rad. His middle initial is "A," and I think we all know what that stands for. Unfortunately, there are already several insane pipemakers, so that shtik isn't entirely available either. Now that Random seems to have crawled back under his rock, perhaps the "Unapiper" moniker is once again free. Marketing is so tough.

TJ

[KurtHuhn]

It's pretty clear that we're all assholes depending on who you ask.

Except the guys who are douchebages, clearly.

[Mike Messer]

... I've seen enough psychological train wrecks in my life...

Oh My God.
OH-MY-GOD!
You know, Todd, most people haven't seen that many psychological train wrecks, and then it hit me.
OH-MY-GOD!
Todd, all those psychological train wrecks you've been seeing, may have been all of your own demented personalities you're seeing in the mirror every morning.
OH-MY-GOD!
Todd, please, get help. You can get help for that sort of thing, I think. You know, maybe Simeon could help you. He seems pretty savy about that sort of thing.
I remember he said,

...it may double as my medication wears off (or on, depending).

But No, forget Simeon.

...Im also now selling my own turds. It's an art, you see...:

Simeon has some kind of sick anal fixation. Ick.
Come on Simeon, tough-up, be a man, damn it!
..

..
Mike

P.S. Sasquatch, I'm hurt. I thought we were on friendly terms.
A lot of guys here have discovered the hard way that all ebonite is not the same. Shore D hardness testing can reveal this to you, sometimes, before you waste a lot of your time making a stem out of it?

IN OTHER NEWS:

disrespect and lack of humility in receiving honest criticism from folks that have more experience than you...

I don't think it's disrespectful to defend your work with rational discussion and explanation. The criticism gets a bit harsh, sometimes.
No doubt, I do get carried away, sometimes, when the remarks get insulting, and SLANDEROUS. If I alienate that, then fine. No problem, but I've been trying to cool that tendency a lot. It can be counterproductive.
Granted, I'm not humble. So, okay, I'm not humble, but I try to be level, and fair.
No offense taken, about your opinion of my pipes, or any of this. Everyone is entitled to his opinion.
I must question the "more experienced" part, though. In pipemaking, yes, but in art and making things, no. To date, I have designed and built over $10 million in Architectural and Art products which have been sold.

P.S. I like your "Mad Hatter" pipe and the images, although they are a bit too dark, IMO. The pipe is hard to see.

M.M.