Question About Ebonite Smell

[KurtHuhn]

One more ad hominem attack, and this thread gets shut down. Keep it civil folks.

Mike, while it is *possible* that you got a piece of bad ebonite, the fact that there hasn't been any buzz about the PME ebonite offering, from either pen makers or pipe makers, suggests that there's something else afoot. If PME did indeed get a over-sulfured stack of ebonite rod from Germany, you can rest assured that, given the manufacturing process that this stuff goes through, the entirety of the pipe making and pen making world would be abuzz about it. PME isn't the only customer of the ebonite from Hamburg - loads of places buy from there, including pipe makers that buy direct. And given the manufacturing process, batches are, shall we say, FRIGGIN' HUGE, and PME wouldn't have been able to buy up the entire thing - so somewhere a bunch of customers have parts of that very same batch. Since this is the only thread that has surfaced anywhere that myself or the collection of pipe makers (and sundry other geeks) here read, the 'bad ebonite' theory is suspect.

More than likely, you've been surprised by the very same smell than anyone else in the world that first works with the stuff has been surprised by. The first thing I hear from pen makers looking for advice on working ebonite is "Does it always smell this bad?" followed closely by "How do I keep this from happening?". This isn't new, and you're not the first person to complain about the smell. Ask Todd what his wife thinks of the smell. My wife thinks it's roughly akin to ruining the bathroom with a mammoth bean/sausage/IPA crap, then using burning tires as air freshener. That's what ebonite smells like while you're working it. Some people display an acute sensitivity to this smell, for whatever reason. It never bothered me much (which is not to say I don't notice the smell), but my wife gags if she visits the workshop during a stem session.

I think, if you follow the suggestions in the original reply to your post, you'll be a lot happier. It *IS*, I repeat *IS* possible to overheat ebonite just by virtue of drilling it or turning it on the lathe. Once you do this, all manner of evil will happen. Some of which could be the gaggalicious smell you generated. The fact that Guidicci pre-mold stems don't display that odor means only that the formulation for the rubber being squirted into a vulcanizing mold is different. It may be lower in sulfur - maybe. I have, in the past, noticed a different smell coming off of the premolds that I use - of all different brands. Some smell very strong, others have a fainter odor that reminds me of water buffalo horn. All are different ebonite formulations, and all are going to have a different smell.

Keep in mind that, if you overheat the ebonite, it will continue to outgas for quite some time. That's the nature of the beast. Treat it carefully, and it will reward you with one of the finest materials available for pens and pipe stems. Mistreat it, and it'll bite you back.

Now, all things being equal, and me having learned a very long time ago never to to say never, I am willing to entertain the idea that you're putting forth. However, I'm going to need a lot more solid evidence than just your say-so. I'm also interested in what you happen to find with the SEM stuff. Especially considering I have a stack of SEM rods, and a stack of rods from New-York Hamburger, and find the SEM rods slightly stronger smelling.

Please do update when you've had time to do a scientific comparison.

[kbadkar]

Gosh, Kurt, you really get points for patience, effort, and just being an all around nice guy. I hope your clear common sense approach will diffuse all this misplaced antagonism.

[Mike Messer]

That's fine with me, Kurt. I don't like the kind of insults that I have been seeing thrown at me, either, and I have been trying to keep this in the factual, technical realm, but just for the record, I took a few ad hominem attacks before I fired back.

[KurtHuhn]

One more ad hominem attack, and this thread gets shut down. Keep it civil folks.

BTW: this is not meant for anyone in particular. I'm not singling anyone out with that comment. Lets just try to keep the snark factor at stun....

[Mike Messer]

One more ad hominem attack, and this thread gets shut down. Keep it civil folks.

Mike, ...

I am glad to hear that you aren't singling anyone out, because it sure seemed different at this stage of the quote. But, okay, whatever, I'm all for keeping it civil, and I'm glad you did step in to clean this thing up a bit.
It was starting to feel pretty bad.
Bad news about you're Gummi - SEM comparison, Kurt, I was hoping for much better from SEM. I didn't overheat the rod when I first cut it. I used a coping saw, and it smelled pretty bad then, but I don't think all of you guys are wrong, unless, we are just talking about different degrees and unable to make an accurate comparison.
I will post when I have some SEM, and can make an exact comparison.
___If all extruded rod must be disgusting smelling because of some requirement of the extrusion process, I don't know, then, I've been thinking, it might be a really good thing if some manufacturer could make molded rods with a carefully controlled formulation similar to Giudici molded stems. They could be short 3, 4, 5, 6 inches long, and various diameters. The best of both worlds. Ideal. Optimized. I don't see any reason why that would not be posible. I have some large Giudici saddles that are an inch in diameter.

[Mike Messer]

...Many new pipemakers have tried to re-invent the wheel. The results are never better than the original.

This is not an attack. I repeat, this is not an attack. I think Rad is an okay guy, a smart fellow, and I like his pipemaking. I have looked at every pipe on his website, and I think he is a real master of detail. I have a directory on my computer ...Pipes\Rad Davis which includes sub directories with images of many of his pipes as reference material.

But this idea about the wheel being re-invented.. It began as a big block of stone on an ox cart in the stone age, then solid wood, then wooden spoked with steel rims, then metal spoked with tires and tubes, then the modern steel wheel with tubeless tires (vulcanized rubber, even).
I think it can be re-invented. Even you, Rad, have some Tuscanite stems. What is that stuff, anyway?
But I agree, in part, that it is very difficult to re-invent the wheel successfully, and there are some subtle qualities of materials you inhale hot chemical smoke through, which are imposible to predict in the short term, even if you had the ability to chemically analyze the resulting smoke. So the old, time tested formula rules, even though, there could be something better.
I just hate that intense sulfur smell, and I want it improved, which is not a big re-invention, just a refinement. I'm going for it, and I don't mind banging heads a little, if I have to. Rather not, actually. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think it is posible.

[ToddJohnson]

Okay, I have a SEM order pending, and when I get it I will either verify, or refute what all of you have been saying, and maybe, clear this up. I have no ego attachment or investment to defend, and I don't care who is right, you or me, just so it is right. ...As for the insults and the bullying, don't worry about it. I'm not that sensitive, tough as hell, actually. I was a West Point Cadet, and you don't know what bullying is until you've had three upperclassmen jump you in triangulation, one in your face and one yelling in each ear. ... No problem.

I thought you cadets were supposed to be the strong silent type. You sure are chatty, soldier.

Anyway, with regard to your most recent string of postings, I will quote our 22 yr. old nanny who says . . . "whatevs."

TJ

P.S. Never work with mammoth ivory

[Frank]

I didn't overheat the rod when I first cut it. I used a coping saw, and it smelled pretty bad then, but I don't think all of you guys are wrong, unless, we are just talking about different degrees and unable to make an accurate comparison.

Just this morning I cut some SEM ebonite with a hacksaw, twice, while it was spinning on the lathe - the sulphur smell was minimal. I'm inclined to believe that you received a lousy rod - sometimes shit actually does happen, albeit unintentional.

If you still have the stinky offcut, perhaps you could send a chunk to Kurt for "independant testing", if he's so inclined.

[Frank]

I thought you cadets were supposed to be the strong silent type. You sure are chatty, soldier.

Anyway, with regard to your most recent string of postings, I will quote our 22 yr. old nanny who says . . . "whatevs."

Todd, nobody can dispute that you're an excellent pipemaker with an abundance of art and pipemaking knowledge and talent, but you're supposed to be an adult (wife and kid and all that...). Nobody gives a Tinker's whether your mood is good, bad or indifferent, just give us a break from the juvenile snarking, it doesn't become you!

[KurtHuhn]

If you still have the stinky offcut, perhaps you could send a chunk to Kurt for "independant testing", if he's so inclined.

I'm game. It has actually piqued my interest.

[Sasquatch]

FWIW, I just did a pipe from a brand stinking new rod from PME. It stunk, for sure, and Mike's description of the smell is accurate - sewery. Doing any serious grinding without a vacuum hook up would have made my shop stink, and in fact, my wife commented on the smell of the place while I had the thing on the lathe.

That said, I treated it much the way Kurt's original post mentioned, which is really to say I treated it like every other stem material I've ever used - sanded it real smooth, buffed it on a hard wheel with brown, an unstitched wheel with brown, and unstitched wheel with white, and then waxed it.

I also treated the inside of the stem to a polish with the polishing compound I got from Dave Wolfe at Walker Briar Works, and waxed inside the stem (as a sealer).

The stem smells fine now.

[Mike Messer]

If you still have the stinky offcut, perhaps you could send a chunk to Kurt for "independant testing", if he's so inclined.

I'm game. It has actually piqued my interest.

Okay, I will send you (Kurt), a chunk. I will use the Contact address on your website.

[Mike Messer]

Todd,
I resigned from West Point very early in my Plebe year, so I am sure I would not fit any posible stereotypical West Point personality, and after a couple of years of Georgia Tech, I changed directions, altogether. I'm more design, arts, craft oriented, I think.
As for the chattiness, when you get older, your mind continues to grow and change, I think, so like a giant Oak tree, it branches in so many directions, and detailing an idea can become very elaborate. At least that's how it seems to me, and I have also observed this in other people. The difference between 30 and 60 is huge, but still, I'm not saying that a younger person can't do elaborate and detailed things, I just think older people tend to bring more details to the conscious, posibly verbal surface. But before I get too old writing all this stuff, SO WHATEVA.
MM

[RadDavis]

Mike,

Thanks for your kind words about my work.

I have a suggestion: Order a piece of cumberland rod from PME. It'll cost you a lot less than an order from SEM, and cumberland only comes from New York Hamburger. SEM can't make Cumberland.

If the dust from your previous rod was a dark brown, it more than likely came from SEM. Black rod from NYH produces an olive colored dust.

There are only two places to get ebonite rod: SEM and New York Hamburger.

When you get the cumberland, try it out and see if it smells any better to you.

Whatever SEM told you, remember: They are trying to sell you some rod, and you more than likely have already tried theirs.

Rad

[Mike Messer]

Thanks, Rad,
I'm sending a little piece of the PME rod in question to Kurt for testing. He has some SEM and some NYH, so, I think I will hold everything until we see what Kurt says.
I'll keep your post in mind.
MM

[jeff]

FWIW, Mike, most of us who have done this for a while have used stock from both companies, if not from others as well. I've used Hamburg, SEM, vintage stock that has a density similar to the Guidicis you mentioned, molded stems of various origins and ages, as well as a bunch of stems I've modified of multiple makes from basket pipes to Nordhs. The newer stock extruded ebonite that I've used has a stronger odor than older, but it is a finer material. Both have the sulfury, sewer-like smell--but its strength varies a bit. Molded stems seem to have a wider range between noxious and almost unnoticeable sulfur smell. But the smell is there. This is all to say that the scent of the vulcanite does not correspond to the quality of the material for high-grade pipes in my opinion.

If you are judging the material by working scent alone and that is the only important point for you, then I would suggest that you stay with preformed stems. They can, after all, be had of various larger diameters so as to useful for customized shapes. As has been said by others, the mixing formulae used for these are different than for extruded rod stock. Some are quite good, I'm told. But, most, in my experience, are very much inferior to their extruded counterparts in terms of their performance (finishing quality, comfort, brittleness, etc.) Your mileage may vary, of course. But, I know that you've observed already the general consensus among those of us who do this for a living and have done so for some time. We expect the scent and tolerate it. And in the 5 years or so that I've been doing this professionally, never once have I heard a word from a customer--many of whom are widely considered to be very knowledgeable about this hobby and have very strong opinions about any number of minutia. The absence of your a priori assumption from the conversation suggests that your experience and opinion with it is in the minority. I'm not suggesting that this is in no way important. It's evidently important to you, but not so to a majority of the people out there.

Best,

Jeff

[Sasquatch]

Having done virtually identical stems for sister hungarians (pipes, not the sisters ) one in ebonite one in cumberland, I can certainly say that the cumberland smelled more like a guidici stem, vaguely rubbery, whereas the ebonite was far more sulfurous in nature.

I wonder if I should tell the customer that his pipe smelled "kind of sewery" before he smokes it???

[ToddJohnson]

I thought you cadets were supposed to be the strong silent type. You sure are chatty, soldier.

Anyway, with regard to your most recent string of postings, I will quote our 22 yr. old nanny who says . . . "whatevs."

Todd, nobody can dispute that you're an excellent pipemaker with an abundance of art and pipemaking knowledge and talent, but you're supposed to be an adult (wife and kid and all that...). Nobody gives a Tinker's whether your mood is good, bad or indifferent, just give us a break from the juvenile snarking, it doesn't become you!

Frank, you're right. I'll try not to be so "snarky" with Mike. He's just trying to help us after all.

Todd

[Mike Messer]

jeff,
Thanks for the concise run-down on the different stem materials, very informative. No doubt I am in the minority about the smell. I'm guessing, that by the time pipes reach customers any objectionable smells probably have subsided, so that works okay if the pipemaker can tolerate it.
Scent is not the only important quality to me, but I think it is significant. So, I am still trying to weigh all of this out, no conclusion yet, but I don't think I will ever work with extremely sulfury materials. They seem too polluted to me.
I visited your web site, today, briefly, and I really like your "Modern Egg. " It is a really cool looking pipe.
Thanks, again for the info.
MM

[KurtHuhn]

If you are judging the material by working scent alone and that is the only important point for you, then I would suggest that you stay with preformed stems. They can, after all, be had of various larger diameters so as to useful for customized shapes. As has been said by others, the mixing formulae used for these are different than for extruded rod stock. Some are quite good, I'm told. But, most, in my experience, are very much inferior to their extruded counterparts in terms of their performance (finishing quality, comfort, brittleness, etc.) Your mileage may vary, of course. But, I know that you've observed already the general consensus among those of us who do this for a living and have done so for some time. We expect the scent and tolerate it.

In addition to all of the above, you have to factor in bubbles in the material and inclusions of small flakes of metal, as well as poor vulcanization. Some premold stems have these in spades, while rod stock rarely does. Also, while you CAN make a premold just as comfortable as a fully hand cut stem, and smoke just as well, it is a laborious process. And sometimes a very frustrating one, especially when you grenade two premolds in a row trying to widen the airway to something more than a pinhole.