pipemakersforum.com

wisemanpipes wrote:

andrew wrote:Freehand with spade bits is bad, unless you are trying to remove a chunk of your hand, then its fine. Pipemakers don't let other pipemakers drill freehand with spade bits. If you make mention of this again we'll have an intervention for you and place an interlock device on your drill press

ahah tell that to rainer. hes a crazy little fella, especially with a spade bit. yes the drill press was stupid but those days are behind me. lathe freehand is so much nicer and safer. and yes i would never try to drill with an unmodified spade bit. i value my appendages!

I've seen that video. I'm pretty sure he was using a bit similar to what Todd is describing, a thick spade bit, not that much different from a spoon bit with a relieved back.

i understand what you guys are saying and i could see that not being as dangerous but in the video he drills a pilot hole then uses what looks like and unmodified bit before moving to the spoon bit. i dont know though so i wont make any assumtions, but it doesnt look that thick and it has the factory hole bored through the bit, which i douby he would do himself if he cut it from a steel template. here, check the vid for sure. its around the 1:40 mark i think.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dh8RBsz0AF4

evan

Not trying the beat a dead horse here and I'm sure Todd's had enough of that to last him a while (chamber coating discussion anyone???), but I would like to bring this to a meaningful conclusion.

So, you are correct, he is using a unmodified factory bit for a guide. I do the same thing with a compass because I like my compass. Using an unmodified spade bit for a guide is fine. Unmodified spade bits have a deep center prong and side prongs that all help keep the bit where it needs to be... in the wood. The unmodified spade bit is perfectly safe.

What we are trying to get people to avoid is using a factory spade bit that has been shaped into a conical... um, shape. I think my spade bits are *going down stairs to measure* all from .1" to .125" thick. There is not enough surface area for the wood to ride on behind the cutting edge to ensure that the bit will not bind and use the stummel to break your hand and cause you untold misery.

The thicker spade bit that you see Barbi using functions more like a spoon bit than a spade bit. I could tell by watching the video that the chamber bit he was using is pretty thick, way more than a typical factory spade bit. In fact, it's probably very close in thickness to let's say 3/16" (listen to Todd, he knows stuff about pipes). I suspect there are also some other things that are very unique to his chamber bit. I doubt the edges of his chamber bit are square, they are probably rounded, otherwise you would tear the chamber walls and it would tend to bind. Anyway, you get the picture.

So, just to reiterate... don't freehand drill chambers with modified factory spade bits.

Just for giggles, I did it a couple times a few years back (freehand drilling with modified factory spade bit). Saw my life flash before my eyes. If I had my lathe turned up faster I may have broken my hand; instead the casualties were my pride, followed by my bruised hand and an innocent stummel.

ohh my, the dead horse is seriously mangled. thanks andrew, very clear.
i guess i should stop using modified spade bits.
sorry to keep going but do you know what pimo or JHlowe sells in regards to spade bits? they look like ground down factory modified spade bits, but im not sure. ive drill quite a number of stummels with the modified spade bits sizes 11/16 through 1 and have yet to have had an injury. all purchased at HD or lowes where i grind down the edges and shape them into conical bits? am i a pipe neanderthal and an idiot? seriously? if its unsafe, i dont want to do it and hurt myself.
thanks for the info andrew and TJ. i appreciate it and i really dont need a broken/sprained wrist.
so if i cant get proper spoon bits from ken lamb or brad pohlman or whomever makes them because i dont have the cash, will the modified spade bit do for now? also where do you find "something that is 3/16th thick"? would a large thick spade bit, shaped down to rounded edges work?

thanks gents
evan

The ground spade bits are fine if you are drilling with the stummel chucked in your headstock or in a vice if you're using a drill press.

I use modified HSS spiral bits for freehand drilling. Works well and it doesn't cost me an arm and a leg, like the spoonbits.
I would love to have them, of course, but damn, they're expensive!

andrew wrote:The ground spade bits are fine if you are drilling with the stummel chucked in your headstock or in a vice if you're using a drill press.

okay i guess i should stop holding the stummel then and chuck it up.
youve been extremely helpful!
evan

When Mr. Master, Barbi rode , he rode hard. If he were still with us I'm sure he would say, " Such is life" Then ask you not to do this.

what?!

CHUCK IT!

much more clear lol

Gentlemen and Rad,

I feel like we're on the verge of some Random-Mike Messer(shmidt) nonsense here. I have no idea what "Big Canada" is trying to say he's done in the past, or even how a Canadian can procure tools in the great frozen snowy north, but I wouldn't want to be responsible for it.

Are spoon bits expensive in comparison to spade bits? Yes. If you buy spoon bits from Ken Lamb, will they work for drilling pipes? No. If you buy the ones from Brad, will they work for drilling pipes if you're not a 600 lb. gorilla? No! Will I have spoon bits of my own design available at my cost in Chicago . . . ? I hope to.

Is this post sponsored by NAFTA, Stephen Harper, and the Gouvernement du Canada, or Ernie "Beefcake" Markle? Nope. Do I know WTF I'm talking about? Yup.

TJ

ernie does sponser this... or at least thats how i thought we got the funding. i guess your calling me "big canada"... im saying that i grind down spade bits, put them in a chuck in the head stock and drill my stummel by pushing it into the drill bit. and dont worry, we canadians have our ways.

I understand this is getting a little like a Random/MM thread but im not in denial and insist im right about something i have no idea about. i was just asking for a little help so i dont break my wrists. i dont exactly know what your saying about spoonbits, but i guess you needed to get some product placement in.

i am glad YOU know what YOUR talking about.

evan

Todd,

I still don't understand the part about Brad's bits. I have a set. I'm not a 600lb gorilla, yet I managed to drill a couple of pipes (and screw another pair.) However, it wasn't comfortable nor smooth, so I'm very interested: what are you saying?

Cheers,
Leo

Leus wrote:Todd,

I still don't understand the part about Brad's bits. I have a set. I'm not a 600lb gorilla, yet I managed to drill a couple of pipes (and screw another pair.) However, it wasn't comfortable nor smooth, so I'm very interested: what are you saying?

Cheers,
Leo

Leo,

I've used Brads bits, and once you get them to the bottom, the chamber is as smooth as a baby's bottom. They are both as good and precise as is Brad. The problem is that people don't know what spoon bits work like when they're right, so they figure if they can get a hole in the pipe with them, then they "work." Maybe Brad pilots differently--with a larger bit--and that helps them cut easier, but I have found that they work best more as "reamers" than drill bits. If you're actually drilling with them you have to apply an enormous amount of force to get them to cut, thus making them track off, or get the chamber out of round, etc. Again, maybe I'm not using them correctly, but I've basically heard similar things from a number of guys that have them.

TJ

wisemanpipes wrote:ernie does sponser this... or at least thats how i thought we got the funding. i guess your calling me "big canada"... im saying that i grind down spade bits, put them in a chuck in the head stock and drill my stummel by pushing it into the drill bit. and dont worry, we canadians have our ways.

I understand this is getting a little like a Random/MM thread but im not in denial and insist im right about something i have no idea about. i was just asking for a little help so i dont break my wrists. i dont exactly know what your saying about spoonbits, but i guess you needed to get some product placement in.

i am glad YOU know what YOUR talking about.

evan

Evan, relax dude, I was only joking. What you're doing--even if it is effective--isn't very safe. That was my basic point. As for "product placement," do you really think there's money to be made by supplying drill bits to hobbyist pipe makers? Consider the opportunity cost of this endeavor for me. The numbers aren't really there.

As far as "knowing what I'm talking about," I wasn't necessarily trying to imply that you didn't, I'm only saying I've been doing this for a long time and have probably drilled a couple thousand pipes using spoon bits. I know how they should work, and it is my hope to design and sell some to you guys that do. That's all. I've grown so frustrated by the Ken Lamb tools that change each year but still don't work, and I've tried to "partner" with Ken so that he would use his skills and expertise to produce tools of my own design, but we just can't seem to get together on it.

TJ

haha sorry todd, i didnt mean to be a smug asshole yesterday. i was well into my "relaxing night". you know feet up with a few glasses of bourbon and my wording was off. its very hard to know the context of someone elses writing on here, opposed to as in person. anyway i appologize and i understand you know what your saying/give great advice and that helps alot of people on here. to be honest im broke after tooling for the lathe, briar etc... so i cant afford spoon bits right now, but im glad you let everyone know how exsisting ones function. hope your design can revolutionize drilling as we know it. at a much more affordable price.

it does work, the way i do it, but im sure its a ticking time bomb until i seriously injure myself. i will look next to invest in a good 2 jaw chuck to save my wrists. btw do you make those as well? seriously who sells them things. trent rudat?
does ken lambs work well? thanks and i appologize again TJ
-evan "Big Canada" wiseman
really roles off the tongue..

ToddJohnson wrote: Leo,

I've used Brads bits, and once you get them to the bottom, the chamber is as smooth as a baby's bottom. They are both as good and precise as is Brad. The problem is that people don't know what spoon bits work like when they're right, so they figure if they can get a hole in the pipe with them, then they "work." Maybe Brad pilots differently--with a larger bit--and that helps them cut easier, but I have found that they work best more as "reamers" than drill bits. If you're actually drilling with them you have to apply an enormous amount of force to get them to cut, thus making them track off, or get the chamber out of round, etc. Again, maybe I'm not using them correctly, but I've basically heard similar things from a number of guys that have them.

TJ

It's so relieving to know it's not me! I tried drilling at first with only a 4mm pilot (the one I used to find the air hole) and that basically didn't work. Somebody then recommended drilling a larger pilot, which I did, and it was way, way better, but still a little unnerving.

I'll be waiting for those bits then

Thanks,
Leo

Ok, so it seems these spoon bits are 95% engineering and 5% magic, just like pipes!
Seriously though, maybe someone could just share the really useful knowledge about spoon bit geometry? What really makes them work the way they're supposed to? Todd, please? Since we're not gonna make anyone loose their job making them...?
I'm actually particularly curious (as most of the other info can be found in pieces aroung the forum), what does the relief on these bits look like? Is it like a groove ground below each cuting edge? Or is the entire circumference relieved below the external diameter of the edge?
One day I'll solve this mistery....

ToddJohnson wrote:

wisemanpipes wrote:ernie does sponser this... or at least thats how i thought we got the funding. i guess your calling me "big canada"... im saying that i grind down spade bits, put them in a chuck in the head stock and drill my stummel by pushing it into the drill bit. and dont worry, we canadians have our ways.

I understand this is getting a little like a Random/MM thread but im not in denial and insist im right about something i have no idea about. i was just asking for a little help so i dont break my wrists. i dont exactly know what your saying about spoonbits, but i guess you needed to get some product placement in.

i am glad YOU know what YOUR talking about.

evan

Evan, relax dude, I was only joking. What you're doing--even if it is effective--isn't very safe. That was my basic point. As for "product placement," do you really think there's money to be made by supplying drill bits to hobbyist pipe makers? Consider the opportunity cost of this endeavor for me. The numbers aren't really there.

As far as "knowing what I'm talking about," I wasn't necessarily trying to imply that you didn't, I'm only saying I've been doing this for a long time and have probably drilled a couple thousand pipes using spoon bits. I know how they should work, and it is my hope to design and sell some to you guys that do. That's all. I've grown so frustrated by the Ken Lamb tools that change each year but still don't work, and I've tried to "partner" with Ken so that he would use his skills and expertise to produce tools of my own design, but we just can't seem to get together on it.

TJ

Todd, I will not be at the Chicago show but I would like to purchase a spoon bit or two from you if possible. Do you think that you might sell me one? I promise not to let Ernie see it

rev