A Studdy Ingrain - "The Tilted Pot Story" by Mike Messer

[Sasquatch]

I didn't know Dr Evil made pipes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kk4n0SvG0-Y


Mike, I can't help when I look at that pipe but think in some ways that it looks like a guy's.... 15th pipe or so. The lines of the shank fudge out (top and bottom) as they approach the bowl, and if you compare that with the hard (measured even) lines of the stem, it's a contrast without purpose, and any pipe maker and more importantly any pipe collector is going to see that, and in this case, the net effect is a pipe with "amateur" shaping tendencies. The thickness of the bowl, the thickness of the shank (especially at the bowl), and the way the piece presents, particularly given that it is JUST enough asymmetrical to kind of throw a guy.....

I'll be honest, when I look at that pipe, that's exactly the kind of thing I am currently trying to get beyond as an artist. I'm not saying I could do a better pot. In fact, lots of my pots look a hell of a lot like that, bowl shape (pick your side) shank size, everything, and the reason for that is that I'm NOT a very good pipemaker. Maybe I underprice my stuff a little bit, but when I look at what a guy can buy for $200.00 bucks or $300.00, damn, you can get a fucking serious pipe for that kind of money. If you are careful, you could get a couple. Mastro de Paja makes nice pipes for 150 bucks. Price yourself against Cavicchi, perhaps - http://www.smokingpipes.com/pipes/new/c ... t_id=67261

That's a helluva a piece of briar for 330. That's the reality. I notice that your other pipes are still for sale, and I'm not saying this to spite your or throw something in your face, but having pipes for sale and having pipes sold is a difference that you seem not to have a great deal of appreciation for.

[KurtHuhn]

It's like I tell my three-year-old: "It's fine if you want to use that word, but the rest of the world calls it something different. So if you want anyone to understand you, you're going to need to use the correct word for it."

That was my favorite line for my kids at that age. I got to the point where it rolled out of my face as if someone hit a "Play" button on the back of my hand.

That and "You realize that when you ask 'What is this?' from the other room, nobody knows what this is, right? You're going to have be a little more descriptive."

[Mike Messer]

The reason that I started using the term "tip" (and I don't know where I picked it up)is because when you use the word "stem" talking to people who aren't pipemakers, they think you are referring to the shank, which is logical since it stems from the bowl like a limb stems from a tree.

But since you all are so opposed to the term, in the future I will use the term "stem" or "mouthpiece," okay?

Thanks again, Bruce and Sasquatch, and Thanks Todd for the serious critique (disregarding some of the weirdness). I'm sure it will be useful. I'll have to think about all of this for awhile.
M.M.

P.S. I got the redneck joke from a stand-up comic on TV.

[SimeonTurner]

The reason that I started using the term "tip" (and I don't know where I picked it up)is because when you use the word "stem" talking to people who aren't pipemakers, they think you are referring to the shank, which is logical since it stems from the bowl like a limb stems from a tree.

I'm pretty sure if you are selling $700+ pipes, your clients are very aware of proper pipe terminology. Either that, or they are brand new lottery winners who think buying pipes would be a good way to waste their new found riches.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this forum full of pretty much nothing but pipe makers of varying degrees? We won't be confused if you call the stem a stem. If you call it a tip, or a limb, or a vulcanized rubber protrusion, we may be confused and give you grief, especially when you couch it in such an otherwise exhaustively detailed description.

[Mike Messer]

Probably true Simeon, and I said, in the future, I will use the term "Stem" It isn't really that big a deal, now, is it? And quite frankly, I don't think anyone was truly confused by the term "tip." Ya know what I mean?

[Walle]

Comrades!

Would you, please, stop mauling comrade Mike.

1.) The pipe: A pot. A classical but boring shape. I think it is perfectly executed. Sorry, I cannot see any faults in dimensions or as to symmetrical necessities. The grain is nice, so is the finish, the "tip" couldn´t be (much) better. Fine work, Mike! If I liked the shape I might be excited. Why do you try to compete with, say, Cavicchi or Mastro de Paja? With all their skills and technical means? They´d make 10 like this one in 2 minutes.

2.) The price: Is what you ask. The worth is what you´ll get. It is as simple as that. Your asking price for this pot suits the picture I took in Ireland recently:



I´m (still, despite my years) a daring driver, but: I didn´t even try to violate the speed limit. (Todd probably would have, though.)

Cheerio!
Walle

[flix]

I´m (still, despite my years) a daring driver, but: I didn´t even try to violate the speed limit. (Todd probably would have, though.)

Cheerio!
Walle

Sir, you never, whether through your pipes or your prose, fail to entertain. Thank you in advance for the next time you further amuse us, endear us to you, cause us to LOL, or perhaps to gag just the teeniest bit...

[Mike Messer]

Thanks Walle, I've been working with the more classic or contemporary classic shapes to kind-of connect. In theory, there are unlimited posibilities, and if you get too far out people can't identify what you are doing. You are an exception. Your pipes are really unique and your style is very solid and recognizable.
As for prices, I don't know?

[RadDavis]

As for prices, I don't know?

This much is obvious.

From your website:

The way I work is a factor in my pricing which may seem high, but I spend a lot of time and money on pipemaking and all things considered, and if things go well, no one can say for sure, but in a few years the price may be a few thousand each, instead of a few hundred each.

Mike, no customer cares how much time or money you spend on your pipe making. What they care about are results and how nice the pipe looks.

Your pipes at this point look like $200-300 pipes, and that's pretty damn good for a brand new pipe maker. People might actually pay that for them. As your prices stand now, all you're going to get from knowledgeable pipe smokers who happen to stumble onto your site is laughed at.

This part:

but in a few years the price may be a few thousand each, instead of a few hundred each.

is absolutely awful. Your not going to win any customers with hubris.

The more I read your web site, the more I think you're putting us all on. Who are you really?

Rad

[baweaverpipes]

Hey Rad! Don't be so mean spirited.
It's a known fact that you leave your bowls untouched..........no coating.
Perhaps you should use Mike's, since ants refuse to eat it

[Mike Messer]

Hey Rad! Don't be so mean spirited.
It's a known fact that you leave your bowls untouched..........no coating.
Perhaps you should use Mike's, since ants refuse to eat it

Na, Bruce, that wasn't really mean spirited. Mean spirited is what you become on Day 1, when you walk through the gates of West Point as a Cadet, and your Spirit is Possessed by the Demon Spirit, Legion, from Hell,...one snarly-assed son-of-a-bitch.
Eat me, I'm a puffer fish, be your last meal.


But seriously, the kind of thing Rad's doing is helpful. I might be offended, sometimes, but it is still helpful. I might not take his advice or agree with his opinion, but it's good to have it, and I really do appreciate you all wasting your time on me.
Absolutely, Thanks a lot.
Keep it cool,
M.M.

Some additional info.
A few months ago I saw the famous Nana Ivarsson's #1710 Smooth. It's a great pipe. Just Perfect. Probably sold for $3500 or more, one-of-a-kind, handmade.


Today, I was looking at the prestigous Danish manufacturer, Stanwell pipes' very similar, Nana Smooth model, $156.80 on Iwan Ries website.

Stanwell invests an average of 15 min. labor on each pipe, 200,000 pipes a year, with 25 employees.
But, you're telling me you don't think time and money invested mean anything?
I have to disagree.

[baweaverpipes]

Mike,
To be candid, we really want to help. Most of us have tried to reinvent the wheel and have realized that listening to established artisans proves fruitful.
I met Rod Davies at my first pipe show. I can't tell you how willing he was to help. I hold him in the highest regard. In fact, I haven't met any pipe artisans that were not more than willing to offer advice. Tops on the list is Thad Johnston. He has helped to establish more artisans than any other. He's a douche bag, but his dedication to the craft and willingness to help is second to none.
All of us are here to help one another and actually have fun in doing so, as well as having fun at yanking chains.
You're new and it appears you seek advice, show some humility and sincere appreciation.

The more I read your web site, the more I think you're putting us all on. Who are you really?

Rad

I mirror Rad, are you putting us on, or are you for real?

[Mike Messer]

But seriously, the kind of thing Rad's doing is helpful. I might be offended, sometimes, but it is still helpful. I might not take his advice or agree with his opinion, but it's good to have it, and I really do appreciate you all wasting your time on me.
Absolutely, Thanks a lot.
Keep it cool,
M.M.

I know my post got a bit lengthy, with the quote, then the B.S., the pictures and everything, but did you skip this part, Bruce?

To answer your question, though, I am for R-E-A-L.
M.M.

[baweaverpipes]

But seriously, the kind of thing Rad's doing is helpful. I might be offended, sometimes, but it is still helpful. I might not take his advice or agree with his opinion, but it's good to have it, and I really do appreciate you all wasting your time on me.
Absolutely, Thanks a lot.
Keep it cool,
M.M.

Did you skip this part, Bruce?

And to think I believed Thad Johnston, Rod Davies, eRemarkable, Brad "the liberal" Pohldancer, Hurt Kuhn and Simon Tucker to be the world's biggest douches, you take the prize.
My goodness! Damn! Talk about passive aggressive
In a backhanded way, I had wanted to help, but no longer give a wit about you.
As you had been told previously, this is a small community and when you alienate artisans, collectors won't give you a second thought.
Simply, cockamamie! Way to go! You've been dismissed.

[KurtHuhn]

I think the point that's trying to be made here, Mike, is that even though it sounds harsh is that you really do have to pay your dues to the pipe collecting public. It doesn't sound kind, but humans (as a group and a species) rarely are. Before a collector is going to drop several hundred dollars on one of your pipes, he wants to be sure you've been at this a while and know what you're doing. He also wants to see that you're serious, and are in it for the long haul - that way he knows that when he points to your pipe in his collection, other collectors will know who you are.

Collectors almost never post images of pipes to forums from no-names and say, "Hey check it out, I just got this pipe! You've never heard of the maker, and I confess I have no idea who he is either, but isn't the pipe nice?". They post pics and say, "Check out my new Bruce Weaver SUCKAS! Jealous?".

Well, maybe not to that extreme, but hopefully that gets the point across.

Also, you can think of pipe collectors like stock market traders. That's probably the best analogy I can think of.

[BriarWorldNick]

Pipe collector would be a phrase that doesn't really fit me, but in everything I purchase my interest only runs enthusiasm deep. I am willing to pay a man ridiculous money for something he made, given that I can see his enthusiasm goes beyond what I am holding. Typically these would be the people who give you more than you pay for, and that is important in everything you do.

That being said, people who have a love and enthusiasm for creating, rarely artificially inflate prices, if even to just satisfy what is common on the market. These people have usually undervalued themselves more than they know. But then again, that all depends on how you equate value.

Life-force is a one trick pony, you never get back what you spend, and no money makes that more a reality. I would say that psychedelics are your best bet for truly understanding that, or having someone close to you die. So when you make a pipe, understand profit must be made, in order to continue on your journey, but also understand that profit is truly a very small section of the value in creating a pipe(or anything else for that matter). Because the profit won't replace your life-force.

In a very basic way, that whole saying about being able to do what you love, is saying the same thing. Just do it, love the motions, love the product, but love the process more, because all in all the floor will get dirty again and you will find yourself sweeping it.

[RadDavis]

Stanwell invests an average of 15 min. labor on each pipe, 200,000 pipes a year, with 25 employees.
But, you're telling me you don't think time and money invested mean anything?
I have to disagree.

Mike, the price of a Nanna Ivarsson pipe has nothing to do with the time and money she has invested in the pipe and everything to do with family heritage and the fact that her grandfather was Sixten, her father is Lars, she can make a beautiful pipe, and her last name is IVARSSON!

She probably "invested" about 5-7 hours and $75 in that pipe.

You have to build your name and reputation before you can expect anyone to pay the prices you are asking for your pipes. That's just a fact of life.

The fact that you can get a Nanna designed pipe from Stanwell for $146 has nothing to do with anything. You can get a "Monet" at Target for like $6.95.

Rad

[Sorringowl]

Hi Mike,
Just thought I would add my two cents to this thread as I'm amazed it's gotten so much attention. Actually, I'm kind of perplexed too, to be honest. I think you made a nice, classic looking pipe with a bit of a twist (literally). However, I kind of wish you hadn't. What I mean is, on it's own, this could have been a very nice, straightforward, pot shaped pipe, with no twist. Instead, I think the slight angle detracts from the classic design. It's not a deal breaker, mind you, but between this pipe and another equally nice, pot shaped pipe, with no angle, I, personally, would go for the latter.

What I'm saying is, while I appreciate your attempt on a new take of a classic shape, I don't think the angle is significant enough to really add to the overall design of the pipe. When I look at it, I think, "this pipe looks a little "off" to me." Actually, when I first saw it, I didn't really notice the whole angle thing, blatantly, until I read your description. Subconsciously, I knew something was off kilter but not enough to realize it was part of the design. Also, such a classic shape, I don't think, lends itself really well to a design facet such as angling, unless you balance it out some other way (or ways--say, for example, cant the rim as well and make both angles a bit more steep).

There's nothing wrong with wanting to do a modern take on a classic shape but I think it needs to be more purposeful. Otherwise, you don't really notice it either way and it becomes a detriment to the stronger overall design because it's not harmonious with everything else. Right now, it looks like these two design elements are at odds with each other and, to me, the classic part wins, hands down. It's like the crossing of the finish line of the classic part is somewhat tripped on from the modern (slight angle) part. So, instead of the completed execution of this pipe being a graceful victory, it kind of falters.

Again, it's not a deal breaker but, on an aesthetic level, I like it when things are more defined either way. As a few examples, I absolutely love Chris Askwith's stubby, chimney stack nosewarmers (which you can see in the gallery or on his website). They combine elements of classic shapes into a design that is very unique, modern, integral and when I look at them, I say to myself, "That's an Askwith pipe!" I have seen enough of his work to know that now but he also has a very definitive style which, I think, is still classic and modern and which, in my opinion, just looks good.

The same goes for Steffen (SWM) and his pipes. Very modern with all sorts of different angles and lines that challenge the eye in an intriguing way and make you ask, "how did he do that?" Still, though, you can see the classic lines and traditional workmanship in his pipes (he can also make a KILLER billiard too, by the way). Again, another maker with a very distinctive and purposeful take on his work.

So far, from what I've seen from of your work, I think you could have a very distinctive style and it seems like you have some very good pipe making skills to build on. But you might want to take heed of what some of the other more experienced makers have been saying here regarding making things simpler (and therefore less cluttered).

[Sasquatch]

In a very basic way, that whole saying about being able to do what you love, is saying the same thing. Just do it, love the motions, love the product, but love the process more, because all in all the floor will get dirty again and you will find yourself sweeping it.

Bingo.


Whether or not I ever make a really, truly "high grade" pipe, (I don't consider that I've done so yet, and I may never), but I love every single one of 'em. And strangely enough, people keep buying pipes from me. And stranger yet, a more than a few people have said "Oh I don't care how much it costs, I just want to have a pipe from you - your enthusiasm is infectious."

I make money at pipes because I don't try to make money at pipes. I try to make "favorite" pipes. God how I love to see pictures of my pipes when people have smoked them 500 times, and all beat up and over-reamed and chewed to shit. The pipe was a success! I don't want it sitting in some fucking cabinet! I want it sitting in the pickup truck and successfully burning 2 lbs of Grampa's toby day after day because no other pipe Grampa has works quite as well, or hangs quite like that.

But that's just me. All I do is make pipes every second I can, because I can. Because I can, I must.

"Favorite" and "hallowed" are not the same.


You are all capitalist pigs, and will be first against the wall when the revolution comes.

[Sorringowl]

As far as your prices go, well, I believe something is worth what another person is willing to pay for it, but yeah, if you're serious about selling (and I think your pipes could sell, btw) you might want to think of yourself as an apprentice looking to build good "relationships" with any potential buyers. Relationships are built on trust and from what I've seen, if you're a bit humble in the beginning (check out Eder and Sasquatch's pipes and prices and their whole attitude) and "offer" your pipes, aka, your budding craft for much less than what you actually put into it, what you're really saying is, "I'm confident enough in my long term commitment to my craft that I will offer my beginning work at prices that I think a new customer will take a chance on me and say, "well, what have I got to lose?"

In other words, think of these early pipes as good enough to sell but price them almost with the attitude that you're gifting what you've learned so far and in return, possibly getting really important feedback from your future potential buyers. I think it's better for a fairly new pipe maker to price their work at a price point that it makes it a no brainer for someone to try one of your pipes. And that's what you want to do when you first offer anything to sell. It's just good business. Later on, when word gets out that you're good and your pipes actually smoke well, and you get more orders than you can fill, then you can think about raising your prices to a level that more accurately reflects the actual time and work you put into them.

I think the best pipe makers though still put more time and effort into their work than a dollar amount can cover, even if they sell them for $500 plus. If you look at some of the websites for some of the top guys here, their pricing (when you consider the amount of time, knowledge and skill they put into their craft) is probably fair, at best, and more often is probably quite generous.

It seems now, your prices are more reflective of an emotional attachment to your first works of art, than an actual fair market value based on real world factors (what else could someone buy and from whom else for the amount of money they will spend on one of my pipes?). If that's the case, I would say, don't price them at all. Keep them (or gift them). In the beginning, it might be better to not try and sell them, and not price them if you don't really want to part with them. It might also make a potential buyer say, "Hmm...that's a nice pipe...I would pay (x-amount) for that pipe." and actually cause them to make you an offer. Either way, it seems like you might want to take some more time for your craft to develop (and make more pipes so as to be less attached to your work, emotionally) before you start selling (and pricing) so that you have a more realistic view of who you are as a pipemaker and what your pipes are worth, as compared to what is already out there.

All that said, I like your work so far and again, I think they could sell but I also think you need to take some more time and develop your own unique style so that it is more easily recognizable, less cluttered, and hopefully creates more of demand for a "Mike Messer" pipe.