Art or Craft?

[scotties22]

Not only that but we are right back to semantical bullshittery.

We are all basically saying the same thing, just a bit differently and from our own perspective/experience.

What is all comes down to is that art really isn't that much different than religion. Wherein we all pretty much believe the same thing. But, there are just enough ideological differences to set us all on completely different plains of existence.

[NathanA]

It is art if it is intended to be art by the creator and can then be judged as such. It is a pipe if it has been created to be a pipe and can then be judged as such. When arbitrary lines are drawn as to which shapes are and are not art then it illustrates the pointlessness of the conversation because every single person will have a different opinion, all of which would be equally correct (or incorrect, more likely).

The better conversation to have is to put aside all pretension and judge pipes as pipes and discuss what makes Gotoh's or Revyagin's or TJ's pipes transcendant not from a good pipe to art but rather from a good pipe to a great or an outstanding pipe. To me it is just way too self-congratulatory to start calling things art because if pipes are art then all pipes are art, including all the really crappy ones out there. The discussion then has to change to good pipe art vs. bad pipe art when the discussion should just be good pipe vs. bad pipe.

I hear you, but I think we may have to continue to disagree. The the creator gets absolutely no say what-so-ever in how their work is perceived. I can call my pipes whatever I want, but unless they are perceived that way, I'm wrong. I can display my work a certain way or talk about it a certain way, but the perception is up to the audience, not the creator. It's up to the creator to create something that communicates their intent to their audience. That's one of the hardest things to do as an artist and many (if not most) fail.

If pipes can't be art and there is no justification for discussing pipes as art, then anything other than a billiard is a failure as a pipe. I think this is wrong. When we discuss whether a pipe is good or not and we discuss line, flow, balance, execution we are using the vocabulary of artistic criticism. We are talking about art.

Ok. I now perceive my own pipes to be gold nuggets and I will use them for a down payment on my new Bentley. Everybody wish me good luck.

My point is that if one makers pipes are art then so are every other maker's pipes. Why is it necessary to call a pipe art and judge it as something other than a pipe. If you want to call your pipes art because it pushes you to make better pipes, wonderful; you are certainly free to do so. My issue is sooner or later that eliminates criticism because any choice made in shaping/finishing the pipe doesn't become right or wrong in crafting a pipe it becomes "artistic license" and therein lies the path to ridiculousness (i.e. any of MM's posts.)

[NathanA]

Oh, yeah. It is up to the audience to decide if it is good art or bad art not if it is or is not art. Audiences can't decide that chickens are ducks but they can decide which has prettier feathers or which tastes better but that in itself is subjective.

[wdteipen]

I aspire to be an avant garde pipe artist who makes pipes that evoke feelings of anger and rage. I think I'm close.

[sethile]

This thread may have played out, but I want to take another stab it from my perspective...

I greatly admire seeing fine woodworking, especially beautifully made furniture and cabinets where the aesthetics play just as important a role as the function, and sometimes supplant it. The examples I like the best do not compromise function for art, but manage to seamlessly marry the two. These pieces are often referred to as Functional Art, or Art Furniture, and often appear in museums and galleries along side other works of art.

The most creative beautifully executed pipes are no less functional art than the finest piece of Art Furniture. So, is all furniture art? No, of course not. Neither are all pipes, but I think some are. Perhaps we need to start distinguishing these as Art Pipes. When would a pipe cross over and become an Art Pipe? I don't know, when does furniture cross over and become Art Furniture? Who decides? Who cares? Well, those of us that aspire to make these pieces do, but I don't think we get to be the ones that decide if we have succeeded... I know several of us have had our pipes on display in art galleries alongside other art. Does that make them art? No, of course not, but it is gratifying so see them viewed in that context, and I think some of them really are...

[scotties22]

I think you lead us down a very interesting road here, Scott. "Functional Art" is a very interesting topic, indeed. I think most craft falls into this category. Becuase, really, isn't every creation art on some level...good or bad?

[Sasquatch]

In the industry, we abbreviate "Functional Art" and just call it "FArt" for short. I think Scott's approach to FArting is terrific.

[mredmond]

Todd, I've been waiting for a response from you for days. Your philosophical perspective never disappoints.

[pipedreamer]

Sas, I'm going out to the shop to make some Farts.Been busy as I am sure you have been due to the demands for Farts. I sure hop I get Santa to leave me the Fart that I want for this year.Next year I'm hoping to get one of your magnificent farts.I'll hang it under my nose and think of you up there working away making Farts!!!!!!!!!

[sandahlpipe]

Thanks, Scott for making all my waxing eloquent about what art is look stupid. I don't know that I could have put an actual answer to the original question into words better than you did.

[d.huber]

It is art if it is intended to be art by the creator and can then be judged as such. It is a pipe if it has been created to be a pipe and can then be judged as such. When arbitrary lines are drawn as to which shapes are and are not art then it illustrates the pointlessness of the conversation because every single person will have a different opinion, all of which would be equally correct (or incorrect, more likely).

The better conversation to have is to put aside all pretension and judge pipes as pipes and discuss what makes Gotoh's or Revyagin's or TJ's pipes transcendant not from a good pipe to art but rather from a good pipe to a great or an outstanding pipe. To me it is just way too self-congratulatory to start calling things art because if pipes are art then all pipes are art, including all the really crappy ones out there. The discussion then has to change to good pipe art vs. bad pipe art when the discussion should just be good pipe vs. bad pipe.

I hear you, but I think we may have to continue to disagree. The the creator gets absolutely no say what-so-ever in how their work is perceived. I can call my pipes whatever I want, but unless they are perceived that way, I'm wrong. I can display my work a certain way or talk about it a certain way, but the perception is up to the audience, not the creator. It's up to the creator to create something that communicates their intent to their audience. That's one of the hardest things to do as an artist and many (if not most) fail.

If pipes can't be art and there is no justification for discussing pipes as art, then anything other than a billiard is a failure as a pipe. I think this is wrong. When we discuss whether a pipe is good or not and we discuss line, flow, balance, execution we are using the vocabulary of artistic criticism. We are talking about art.

Ok. I now perceive my own pipes to be gold nuggets and I will use them for a down payment on my new Bentley. Everybody wish me good luck.

My point is that if one makers pipes are art then so are every other maker's pipes. Why is it necessary to call a pipe art and judge it as something other than a pipe. If you want to call your pipes art because it pushes you to make better pipes, wonderful; you are certainly free to do so. My issue is sooner or later that eliminates criticism because any choice made in shaping/finishing the pipe doesn't become right or wrong in crafting a pipe it becomes "artistic license" and therein lies the path to ridiculousness (i.e. any of MM's posts.)

Lol! C'mon Nathan! I'm not suggesting that I can decide that my chair is a kite or a car is a whale. That's delusion, not perception.

An audience is required to decide if what you make is art or not. You can decide for yourself but that choice is utterly irrelevant. If someone believes that they make art but their audience believes otherwise then they have failed to communicate through their medium.

[d.huber]

Since I have a degree in philosophy, I feel completely qualified to say this: you guys give me a headache.

Well show us how it's done.

[RobEsArt]

This thread has a lot of meat to it. A considerable amount of chewing must be done in order to discern what exactly we are trying to accomplish, if anything.

The original idea here, if I'm not mistaken, was whether or not pipe making is an art or a craft.
However, we have jaunted around many ideas and opinions. Some of which are meritous and some are entertaining. Some have flirted with the notion of taste and objectivity; whether art is in the eye (mind) of the creator or the perceiver. As the idea of objectivity was raised, I was reminded of an article by a renowned art critique by the name of Clement Greenberg - "Can Taste be Objective?"

In my graduate work in Fine Arts, my major professor (John Link) challenged me and my fellow students to read Greenberg's article and write individual responses to it. (Greenberg actually visited Western Michigan University and gave a lecture regarding "Taste" on January 18, 1983 (before my time of academic studies there.)

Link to transcript
http://creativeact.umwblogs.org/2010/10 ... -on-taste/

We had the whole semester to work out our responses, as it would be our final exam for Painting 6400 (and we needed that time).

The article that was given to us can be found here...
https://www.facebook.com/notes/robes-ar ... 8109446338

My response can be found here...
https://www.facebook.com/notes/robes-ar ... 2119444937

I know it is a lot of reading, but I think it is completely in line with our discussion.

I hope this helps... but if not, "it is my duty to inform you that it is hopeless" (VCTR)

[NathanA]

Lol! C'mon Nathan! I'm not suggesting that I can decide that my chair is a kite or a car is a whale. That's delusion, not perception.

An audience is required to decide if what you make is art or not. You can decide for yourself but that choice is utterly irrelevant. If someone believes that they make art but their audience believes otherwise then they have failed to communicate through their medium.

I'm with you, David. Its just such a sticky, subjective territory I think its best left alone. There are people out there who consider objects in jars of their own urine art so why do we even want our pipes in the same discussion. I'm content with making pipes, not art and I hope to one day make a pipe that is so amazingly beautiful that it transcends the boundaries of a pipe and becomes. . . a pipe. And that someone will smoke and enjoy it, as I do with all of my pipes.

[d.huber]

Lol! C'mon Nathan! I'm not suggesting that I can decide that my chair is a kite or a car is a whale. That's delusion, not perception.

An audience is required to decide if what you make is art or not. You can decide for yourself but that choice is utterly irrelevant. If someone believes that they make art but their audience believes otherwise then they have failed to communicate through their medium.

I'm with you, David. Its just such a sticky, subjective territory I think its best left alone. There are people out there who consider objects in jars of their own urine art so why do we even want our pipes in the same discussion. I'm content with making pipes, not art and I hope to one day make a pipe that is so amazingly beautiful that it transcends the boundaries of a pipe and becomes. . . a pipe. And that someone will smoke and enjoy it, as I do with all of my pipes.

That's fair. I agree that the conversation is normally, if not always, a bit sticky. There is no clear answer. At the end of a conversation like this, the most I hope for is some fresh perspective and a feeling like we all got a mental work out.

[wdteipen]

This conversation gets hung up (like so many do) because of the mindset that something has to be one thing or another instead of one thing and another. When this happens we inevitably end up arguing semantics and nothing is ever truly gained. This kind of close-mindedness always leaves me frustrated and bored.

[e Markle]

Since I have a degree in philosophy, I feel completely qualified to say this: you guys give me a headache.

Well show us how it's done.

I'm not sure that I can. Partly because...

This kind of close-mindedness always leaves me frustrated and bored.

and partly because I don't want to read these 7 pages . Also, this question is considerably larger than one can reasonably tackle in a forum like this with any expectation of a resolution. One of my college courses was Aesthetics, and even after a semester of reading essays on the topic, I don't feel like I have anything close to a conclusion.

Sparkle Out

[d.huber]

Since I have a degree in philosophy, I feel completely qualified to say this: you guys give me a headache.

Well show us how it's done.

I'm not sure that I can. Partly because...

This kind of close-mindedness always leaves me frustrated and bored.

and partly because I don't want to read these 7 pages .

Lol! Fair enough.