Symmetry vs. Asymmetry

[wdteipen]

I've recently been exploring asymmetry in pipe design. I think it would make for a good discussion. I'm interested in everyone's thoughts as it pertains to asymmetrical pipe designs and what works, what doesn't, and why. The asymmetry on the Ryukin pipe I posted doesn't entirely work but I can't put my finger on why or how it could. A comment David made especially interests me:

With symmetry and asymmetry, both work best when you embrace one completely instead of go half way.

I understand what it means to embrace symmetry but what does it mean to embrace or commit to asymmetry? How can a pipe be half asymmetrical? Or better yet, how can a pipe be half symmetrical? It seems to be contradictory. It takes both halves of a pipe to be symmetrical. I agree with what David is seeing and describing but I don't know why I agree. Thoughts?

[baweaverpipes]

I've seen billiards be asymmetrical, where the draft hole wasn't centered. The pipe looked good and it smoked like a dream, so I was told!

[jogilli]

I'm not sure what you want to gain from the argument Wayne... Ain't no embracing anything and faking the other.. Hogwash .....But maybe I look at the world through different eyes...

You either shot for a classic within proportion shapes... Symmetric ... Or shot for an exaggeration of set standards... Asymmetrical ...and make it look good... That's why most comments refer to making the lines match... And look good... But don't make a tilted pot and call it that just because you couldn't pull off the original shape you intended to make....

An ugly pipe is an ugly pipe... Symmetric or not.... Remember the ear pipe from a few years ago... What are you trying to make. And think about the proportions you want the pipe to exude

From over there... And I liked your pipe... It had a lot of attributes I see in pipes everyday over in Europe... Maybe it's an ocean that slants one view.. Who knows

James

[wdteipen]

My intent isn't to argue anything. I just thought it would be a good discussion.

[mredmond]

I'm not sure I agree with the idea that you can't go halfway, because there are a whole lot of really nice pipes out there that have tear drop shanks (always asymmetrical) paired with pretty darn symmetrical egg or tomato, etc bowls. The Lars style blowfish being a good example. While not perfectly symmetrical, the bowl certainly tends toward symmetry.

[seamonster]

I was very interested in the other discussion, and so will jump in here. I took David to mean 'halfway' not to be a percentage of your pipe that was symmetrical or asymmetrical, but more your COMMITMENT TO YOUR CHOICE. I agree with him. it looked to me like you couldn't quite decide and that is reflected in the pipe. if you want asymmetrical, I think you have to push that idea fast enough that it is clear to us that that was your intent. as it stands it feels as though you were tentative or on the fence... want asymmetrical? go REALLY asymmetrical. this, like many things in design is hard to verbalize, but we know it when we see it...
there is a lot of talk around here about making classic shapes first, that it is much harder to critique more abstract shapes, and I think that is true too... it takes a lot of experience to make an abstract design work... all of the basic design elements have to come in to play in just the right balance to make the object sing.... it's near impossible to write a recipe for a singing object, but we know it when we see it, after the fact.
I think if you make a hundred sketches of this idea, and ten more pipes tweaking the nuances, you will find that elemental balance, or be closet to understanding what you want the idea to be.

[jogilli]

My intent isn't to argue anything. I just thought it would be a good discussion.

Maybe argument was too strong a word... Discussion then... Let's see how this plays out

Seamonster ... Nice little jaunt down the path of discussion ..

Have a great Saturday folks... Almost bed time for me.. Looking forward to reading the thread in the morning

James

[LatakiaLover]

If you look at a pipe and think the maker made a mistake---or aren't sure whether he did---it's "bad" asymmetry.

If you look at a pipe and it's obviously & objectively out of whack, while subjectively it looks balanced & right, it's asymmetrical in the "good" way.

(Going by how infrequently I see it, the second kind must be difficult to do.)

[pipedreamer]

Lines can still flow .Like George said if you look at it and feel the maker made a mistake, not good, But if it pulls you in and captures your imagination , then I would say he succeeded.Waynes pipe plays with you and you find yourself tilting your head wandering then saying Oh I can see that, that's nice! The extreme would be maybe, Revyagin?

[d.huber]

SeaMonster explained my point well. It boils down to intentionality, the "why?" of asymmetry in a piece.

Before I start, I just want to say that I am not an expert on this and am simply relating my own observations and thoughts.

Asymmetry is very hard to do well because it requires more than moving one line out of balance. That does create asymmetry, but it doesn't create harmony and balance. Instead, it creates dis-harmony and im-balance in an otherwise symmetric composition. Harmony and balance are what make asymmetry work.

Gotoh is a great example of someone who does asymmetry well.

This is a Smooth Ginko that SmokingPipes had.






The central element that makes this design work is that the bowl and the shank are the same shape reoriented and gently modified to balance each other. There is thoughtful intention in that choice. In other words, Gotoh created repetitive asymmetric shapes which balance each other along the central axis of symmetry.

The stem poses challenging questions that I've been working to identify. I think it works on this pipe because, while the shape of the shank and bowl balance each other visually, the stem balances the stummel energetically. Ying and Yang.

Someone mentioned the classic Ivarrson blowfish. I would argue that an Ivarrson blowfish is actually an idea rooted in symmetry which uses a single asymmetric line in order to highlight the inherent symmetry in the composition. That being said, it works because it has intention behind it. The asymmetric line has a job, a reason for being there, and because of that it works. It also doesn't disrupt the inherent symmetry in the composition, which is what gives Ivarsson blowfish balance.



Another way to balance an asymmetric piece is to provide counterbalance by using line, mass, and repetition. Tokutomi does this in a lot of his work.




On this piece, the weight of the right cheek on the bowl balances the reach of the left hand side of the shank. The point on the far left of the shank repeats the point at the far end of the bowl. Tokutomi uses repetition again with the lines on the shank and bowl. When viewed from above, these lines perform a similar sweep at a different angle and both terminate at a point. Notice also that on the right hand side of the bowl and shank is a domed area which uses repetition again in order to balance and harmonize the composition. That isn't everything, of course, but it's the stuff that jumps out at me.

When using asymmetry, it's really important to know where your design is rooted and how you intend to bring everything into balance. A common theme in extremely asymmetric compositions is the use of repetition. No doubt, there are other aesthetic principals at play here, but this is just what I believe I've discovered recently.

[mredmond]

David, I brought up the Ivarsson blowfish and I agree with what you said about it. I brought it up as a counterpoint to the idea brought up in the other thread that a pipe needs to be symmetrical or not and that you can't go halfway. You said the Ivarsson is inherently a symmetric shape, but I'm suggesting it's equal parts symmetric and asymmetric, thus halfway. A teardrop shape is asymmetrical when arranged like it is on the blowfish. Does the asymmetry accentuate the inherent symmetry or vice versa?

I do agree with your thoughts on being intentional, by the way.

[d.huber]

David, I brought up the Ivarsson blowfish and I agree with what you said about it. I brought it up as a counterpoint to the idea brought up in the other thread that a pipe needs to be symmetrical or not and that you can't go halfway. You said the Ivarsson is inherently a symmetric shape, but I'm suggesting it's equal parts symmetric and asymmetric, thus halfway. A teardrop shape is asymmetrical when arranged like it is on the blowfish. Does the asymmetry accentuate the inherent symmetry or vice versa?

I do agree with your thoughts on being intentional, by the way.

Ah! I see what you meant. I think I may not have been very clear about what "half way" meant. I meant to say that asymmetry shouldn't lack justification or detract from the whole of a composition.

I think that the asymmetry in an Ivarsson blowfish is accentuating the symmetry in the composition because that line can only exist within the context of the piece. Rather, the asymmetrical line depends on the rest of the composition to justify its existence but the composition doesn't depend on that line to make sense.

[bregolad]

Before I start, I just want to say that I am not an expert on this and am simply relating my own observations and thoughts.

Well, I AM an expert, and I agree with you.
Talking about asymmetry is quite difficult, since there are basically two kinds, like george said: some bad, some good.

When using asymmetry in a piece (and in symmetric pieces) I try to think about the engery, poise, and direction that the lines lend to the pipe. When asymmetry comes into play, it inevitably gives a sense of the "organic" (a very overused word).

And so thinking about a pipe as living thing, giving a sense of anatomy, internal structure, and/or purpose becomes paramount. I always feel, when I make that first weird line on a pipe, that I'm breathing life into it.

I guess the lesson is don't go around breathing life in lumpy turd pipes.

[The Smoking Yeti]

Don't go around breathing life in lumpy turd pipes.

Words to live by. Pure poetry.

[LatakiaLover]

And just like that, the term "LTP" is born.

[d.huber]

Before I start, I just want to say that I am not an expert on this and am simply relating my own observations and thoughts.

Well, I AM an expert, and I agree with you.

I love it when experts agree with me.

Very well said. I especially liked this:

And so thinking about a pipe as living thing, giving a sense of anatomy, internal structure, and/or purpose becomes paramount. I always feel, when I make that first weird line on a pipe, that I'm breathing life into it.

Imagining a composition as a living thing then creating a snap shot in time of that thing in movement is what it's all about.