Question About Ebonite Smell

[Mike Messer]

. . . I have been making stems using Guidici molded stems. I use a screwdriver bit ground to fit tightly and centered in the lip end, mounted in a 3-jaw chuck on my mini-metal lathe, and the live center in the hole in the tenon of the stem. I then can turn the tenon and the round area of the kind-of crudely molded Guidici stems and make them machine-perfect, well, not completely, the moldings can be pretty warped, somtimes. Then, removed from the lathe, file to reshape the remainder of the stem, and then sand, 220 - 2000 grit . Then I wash the stem, and polish on the buffing wheel, Tripoli, White Diamond, and Carnauba Wax.
. . . Okay, throughout this process there is that unpleasant smell of ebonite dust, but when I am done the stems have no smell, and are fine.
. . . In May I bought a "22mm German Ebonite Rod" from Pipemakers Emporium (pipemakers.org). I cut a 1 3/8 in. piece from the end of it, yestereday, and I immediately noticed a kind-of strong, stewed sort-of ebonite smell, and the saw dust was darker than the dust from the Guidici stems. Further, after the piece of rod was shaped, sanded, polished, and waxed, it still has an unpleasant ebonite smell, and it has been done, now, for 12 hours. I can't imagine using this rod to make pipe stems.
. . . Question: Is this a characteristic of all ebonite rods, did I miss something, is this bad ebonite rod, or what?

[KurtHuhn]

After a while, you won't notice the smell. Work with it long enough, and you get used to it.

Past that, I'll offer the same advice I recently offered a group of pen turners that expressed the same concerns. Note, this is MY method, not THE method. Your mileage may vary, offer not valid in all states, check with your doctor before taking any new medications.

This seems to be an incredibly common question that spawns all sorts suggestions.

Ebonite is both a very forgiving material, as well as a very finicky one. Despite being born of heat and pressure, it isn't very tolerant of either when it comes to finishing and giving it a shine. If too much presure is used while sanding or polishing, you can actually scorch ebonite, causing tiny microbubbles to form, and ruining any chances of a good finish.

For years I've used the below process, and never had to resort to wet sanding, lacquer, shellac, or ren wax.

- If shaping on the lathe, use "scary sharp" tools. This alone will give a nice surface, but the main reason is to reduce the amount of pressure needed, and thus reduce the amount of heat generated. Dull tools and high pressure will abrade the surface, scorch it, and create those tiny microbubles that actually extend down under the surface quite a ways. As a side note, it's the scorching and microbubbles that are the source of extended outgassing of the sulphuric compounds. If you take care not to scorch, the smell only lasts an hour or less.

- Start sanding with 220/240 grit in a high quality paper. Take care to let the sand paper do its job and don't try to rush things by using lots of pressure.

- Finish sand with abralon, or micromesh. The abrasive used in both products is silicone carbide, an abrasive with a rectangular grain shape - as opposed to aluminum oxide's triangular grain shape. Using Abralon, I start with 180 (yes, after 220/240 in paper) and work my way up to 2000. Strictly speaking, using 2000 isn't necessary, and you can easily stop at 500 or 1000 if your buffing setup is up to snuff. However, since it only takes, literally, 15 seconds at 1000 and 2000, I've always done it.

- When you're finished sanding with the lathe on, stop the lathe and run the abralon or micromesh pad lengthwise down the barrel of the pen. Us long strokes from end to the other, do not stop halfway down the pen and reverse direction.

- When you've finished with your final grit, take the barrel off of the mandrel and bushings. Take it to the buffer and buff with brown tripoli - both along the circumference of the barrel and along its length. Use a light hand - tripoli can also scorch ebonite if you buff too hard. Worse, you can easily round over the sharp edges at the end of the barrel and create unsightly v-shaped gaps where the barrel meets the pen components.

- After brown tripoli, buff with white diamond. Again, along both the circumference and length. And again, use a light hand.

- Wipe the pen barrel off with a clean cloth. I like to use regular shop rags, but cloth diapers or 100% coton rags would work just as well.

- After you've got all the white diamond residue off, buff on a coat of carnuba. Prior to this, the pen barrel should already be really shiny. This is just used as a final coat for sparkle factor. Again, speed, heat, pressure, and friction wil come into play. I use an 8-inch buffing wheel, and set my speed at 1200 RPM - or about 2500 SFPM (roughly). Anything higher than that, and you may have trouble with applying the carnuba due to too much heat and speed. In this step, some folks have developed technique that lets them use an 8-inch buff at 1800 RPM, and some even buff at around 850RPM. Remember that duringthis step you're not trying to polish anything - your trying to apply something to the surface. A light hand and sparing application of wax to the wheel will go a long way.

- Once the carnuba is on, buff with a super soft buff at a much lower speed - say 1300SFPM (6 inch wheel at 850 RPM). At this point it's important to remember that you're not trying to apply anything to the surface, and you're not trying to polish the surface. You're buffing the carnuba that you applied in the previous step, smoothing out the surface, and homogenizing the entire thing. That layer of carnuba is super, super thin, so use a low speed, a clean buff, and a very light hand.

- If you don't have a buffer setup like a Beall system or a dedicated buffer, I highly suggest you get one. You can get buffing wheels from Delvies Plastics that are ideal of this type of work, and they're not expensive at all. Get buffing wheel arbors from your local hardware store. I find mine at both the big-box stores, as well as the mom-n-pop, so they're easy to come by.

- If you still don't have buffing wheels, you can get decent results by spinning the lathe and using EEE Ultra Shine. Follow the instructions on the container. The shine won't be as deep and liquid-like as using a buffing wheel, but it will be a good shine. I do not suggest using Shellewax or other friction polishes on ebonite - remember that it's sensitive to heat and pressure.

[Mike Messer]

. . . More info about the PME 22 mm Ebonite Rod.
. . . I have an improvised method of testing materials for Shore D hardness, which consists of a nail punch with a 30 deg andle tip and a point of .1 mm. I carefully set a 10 lb sledge hammer head on top of it, and then measure the diameter of the hole it makes. Then do the trig. to calc. the depth, and apply the Shore D formula.

The PME 22 mm Ebonite Rod tests to be Shore D 64 which is kind of soft.

The Guidici Tips test to be Shore D 82 which is about right, I think.

[Mike Messer]

Thanks, Kurt, for the reply, and the detailed Ebonite working and finishing information. In this case, however, I'm thinking the material is bad. I noticed a very strong stewey smell and the dark brown color when I cut off the piece of rod using a coping saw (it was about 3 a.m. and I didn't want to use the noisy band saw), but I don't think I have enough experience with ebonite to say for sure.

[kbadkar]

I really doubt its bad ebonite. PME gets top notch stuff from Germany. Molded stems are much lower quality rubber material. The dark sulfury shavings are normal. Perhaps, as Kurt's essay touches upon, you over heated or applied too much pressure/friction and released the sulfur beast.

[Mike Messer]

Thanks, Kbadkar, for the information. I think I got off to a bad start with PME. I ordered $300 worth of materials, including their "Stain Kit." When the order arrived, first of all, the stain kit turned out to be Fiebing Leather Dye, which is not mentioned or pictured on their web site. Then 6 of the 12 bottles in the stain kit, had leaked badly. When I removed the caps, it turns out the bottles were used. The cardboard seals under the caps were saturated, dried, crumbly, and stuck to the tops of the bottles. The foil-plastic seals had also been opened. It was a real mess. So, I developed a bit of distrust for PME, even though Andrea offered a replacement. I began to examine the rest of their products on their web site, like, I think their Acrylic Rods are actually turning squares ripped with a table saw from acrylic sheets, and I started thinking they were cutting corners, and thus the Ebonite Rod material might be some industrial grade, good for bearings and machine padding, but not so good for pipe stems, and so forth, and so on... Thanks Again for the reply.
Edit 8-27-09 I only used the opened Fiebing's Dyes from PME to test the product, and I did not especially like the results, colors, smells, stability, etc. I won't use them in a finished pipe. Also, I can't be reasonably sure that they were not contaminated. PME gave me a $20 refund of the price.

[Mike Messer]

. . . Okay, a little more on the subject of materials. I am somewhat inexperienced and ignorant about pipemaking materials, but I have some good background knowledge. My dad taught Wood Shop in High School, and I was running shop tools when I was in Grammar School. I also studied Aerospace Engineering, Chemistry, Physics, and Math at Ga. Tech. In the 70's I designed and built houses in Atlanta, and in Chicago and Atlanta in the 80's I made woodcut prints and paintings.
. . . I don't want to slander PME. The Briar I got from PME and everything else was really nice. I just want to get everything right and make some perfect pipes, and like a detective, I don't trust anything or anyone. Maybe I'm trying too hard, I know I am, but I think everything, materials, technique, the elusive talent ingredient, and even the context must be right in order to achieve this.
. . . I think I am going to lighten up a little, now, and light up one of my pipes.

[KurtHuhn]

. . . I think I am going to lighten up a little, now, and light up one of my pipes.

That's probably the best course of action.

Chances are, you're trying too hard. Try to remove the experience in physics and materials sciences, and you'll have a lot more fun. For your first pipes, trying to make sure you have the bestest of everything is just going to introduce another layer of stress for you. Concentrate on making a pipe that smokes well. When you can do that, concentrate on making one that looks good. When you can do that, think about investing in the absolute best materials, supplies, and tools that you can use.

[Sasquatch]

OK Kurt - I got one that looks good and will smoke well. Now instead of investing in pipe making, I have decided to sell the pipe for $300,000 and retire. Now THAT'S thinking!

[RadDavis]

OK Kurt - I got one that looks good and will smoke well. Now instead of investing in pipe making, I have decided to sell the pipe for $300,000 and retire. Now THAT'S thinking!

List it with coopersark!

Rad

[Sasquatch]

That seems to be the way to do it...

[ToddJohnson]

OK Kurt - I got one that looks good and will smoke well. Now instead of investing in pipe making, I have decided to sell the pipe for $300,000 and retire. Now THAT'S thinking!

List it with coopersark!

Rad

Make sure it's ugly

TJ

[Mike Messer]

__ I returned the German Ebonite Rod to pipemakers.org and they gave me a refund, even though I had cut about one inch off.
__ I have some more info, a test, and you can try this yourself.
__ I drilled a 1/8" dia. hole about 1/4" or so deep in the ebonite rod, and it emitted a strong sewer-gas-like, maybe hydrogen-sulfide odor, and this odor lingers on the piece for days.
__ I did the same test in the side of a molded stem, pipemakers.org VU-499, and it had a not-especially pleasant, rubbery smell, but not the disgusting, gagging odor I got from drilling the rod, and the smell from the molded tip was gone in just a few seconds.
__ No Doubt, the basic ebonite material is a different, and in this sense, a better formulation.
__ Ebonit Rods, of course, for custom, creative shapes, or just for the sake of being really handmade by the master carver are essential to pipemaking, but I am somewhat sure they do not have to smell so disgusting.
__ And, yes the molded tips are cheap, and often warped. I have some where the black pigment was not mixed thoroughly, or the ebonite material was not fine grained enough. I'm not sure what, but the resulting tip had areas of fine speckly reddish-brown which at certain light angles looked very bad, and was unrepairable... But I made a tool to drive molded tips on the lathe and I can turn them to perfect their shape. Drill, file, bend, sand and polish them and some of them look and work great on some pipes.
__ I hope I can find some rod stock, soon, that doesn't smell so bad.

[ToddJohnson]

__ I returned the German Ebonite Rod to pipemakers.org and they gave me a refund, even though I had cut about one inch off.
__ I have some more info, a test, and you can try this yourself.
__ I drilled a 1/8" dia. hole about 1/4" or so deep in the ebonite rod, and it emitted a strong sewer-gas-like, maybe hydrogen-sulfide odor, and this odor lingers on the piece for days.
__ I did the same test in the side of a molded stem, pipemakers.org VU-499, and it had a not-especially pleasant, rubbery smell, but not the disgusting, gagging odor I got from drilling the rod, and the smell from the molded tip was gone in just a few seconds.
__ No Doubt, the basic ebonite material is a different, and in this sense, a better formulation.
__ Ebonit Rods, of course, for custom, creative shapes, or just for the sake of being really handmade by the master carver are essential to pipemaking, but I am somewhat sure they do not have to smell so disgusting.
__ And, yes the molded tips are cheap, and often warped. I have some where the black pigment was not mixed thoroughly, or the ebonite material was not fine grained enough. I'm not sure what, but the resulting tip had areas of fine speckly reddish-brown which at certain light angles looked very bad, and was unrepairable... But I made a tool to drive molded tips on the lathe and I can turn them to perfect their shape. Drill, file, bend, sand and polish them and some of them look and work great on some pipes.
__ I hope I can find some rod stock, soon, that doesn't smell so bad.

This is plain goofy, and I'm not even in a bad mood. You will never find rod stock that doesn't smell awful. It is rubber and you are essentially burning it. Not only that, but it is vulcanized rubber which means it's had sulphur added to it to make it hard. The "sewer gas" smell could be because you're burning sulphur impregnated rubber. If you don't like the smell, you're welcome to use something else, but insinuating that PME's ebonite is somehow flawed or needs to be returned . . . because it smells . . . is just plain nonsense.

[Mike Messer]

Okay, Todd, and others. I am not trying to fight with you. I am just trying to arrive at a correct answer. So, Read This.
My Email to SEM-Hitzacker and Their Reply Email.

------------------------------------------------------------------
To: info@sem-hitzacker.de
Friday Aug 14, 2009 9:30 pm

Subject: Info About Ebonite Rod

Hello,
I am interested in purchasing ebonite rod for my pipemaking projects.
I recently purchased some Ebonite Rod from pipemakers.org, in the USA, which I had to return to them for the following reason.
"When sawed, turned, or drilled it emitted a strong, stewy sewer-gas-like odor, similar to hydrogen-sulfide. The dust was dark brown and wet looking. Further, after the piece of rod was shaped, sanded, polished, and waxed, it still had an unpleasant odor which
lingered on the piece for days."
I have worked with molded stems, like the Italy, Guidici-499, and it had a not-especially pleasant, rubbery smell, but not the
disgusting, gagging odor I got from drilling the rod, and the smell from working the molded tip was gone in just a few seconds.
Do you know what causes this, and can you tell me about the smell from working and other properties of the Ebonite Rod you are selling?
Sincerely,
Mike Messer

---------------------------------------------------------------------

From: meike.huijssen@sem-hitzacker.de
Sat, 15 Aug 2009 06:37:32 +0200

Dear Mr Messer,

Thank you for your interest in our product.

The quality of ebonite is a question of the secrets of the mixture and the quality of the ebonite- dust, which is the basic for a absolutly pure

ebonite rod. The brown colour has the reason, that the material has not been long enough in the vulcanizing process and the smell comes from a
too high part of sulfar.

Giuducci has a long exsperience and they mix the material for the molded mouthpieces my themselves and they just bought our dust also.

I suggest you heard about our quality from other pipemakers. We developed about 3 years to have a perfect product. Pipemakers like Larry

Roush, Barby, Teddy Knudsen, Rafa Martin, Love Geiger, Trever Talbert, Moritz, Tsuge are using our product and gave us best comments.

If you have any other questions don`t hesitate to contact me.

In attachment you find the pricelist and some mor informations and pics.

Warm regards
Meike Huijssen

[Sasquatch]

Tell us what you really think, Todd.

Mike, I recommend making your bits out of Stainless Steel. It has no smell at all, and is extrememly durable.

Seriously, I was going to post exactly what Todd posted. Cumberland and ebonite smell. Vulcanite smells. Acrylic smells so bad (and reminds me of the Orthodontist all those years ago) that I really am not going to use it unless I have to.

I have a bagged shop vac hooked to my sander, so when I am taking large material off a stem, the dust and most of the smell goes in the vac. The stems do have an odor until you seal them up, for sure, but once you finish them correctly, it's gone.

The Guidici stems are pretty good, as vulcanite goes. They are harder than many brands - certainly a lot harder than the stuff Savinelli uses, for instance. But around 1 in six is unusable for any number of reasons - too thin near the airway, improperly extruded (fissures), already bent 5 degrees so they don't turn well on the lathe, etc.

I think a beginning pipe maker should probably work with molded stems for awhile. Maybe 20 pipes or so... that way, he can worry about the shape of the stummel, and getting a good fit and all that stuff without worrying too much about starting the whole thing from scratch.

Last night I fit some ebonite onto the horn I displayed in the gallery a month ago (and was told very correctly by Kurt and Gunnar to get away from the molded stem) and immediately realized, even with the stem at a very rough shape, that the pipe is going to be ten times better because of the rod stock stem.

Will I do every pipe from rod now? I don't know. I might, but I also might get sick of the process and do "standard" shapes with the stems I have and use the more expensive and more difficult rods for special stuff. But having the total freedom of shape means more than I realized.

[RadDavis]

Hi Mike,

I could be wrong, but I believe most of the black ebonite rod from PME is now made by SEM.

I have black rod from both sources, and they are identical. The stuff from New York Hamburger (which PME has also used in the past) creates a dark olive dust, while the stuff from SME is a bit softer and creates a dark brown dust.

Vulcanite smells bad when it's worked because it's made of sulfur and rubber. Thus, the rotten egg/burned rubber smell. You'll have to get used to it.

Rad

[Mike Messer]

PME said the rod I purchased from them was not SEM. They would not tell me who manufactured it, but said it was from Hamburg. Otherwise, I can't say for sure if SEM is better until I get some SEM rods, but I feel reasonably sure that my posts are accurate. I never said ebonite should smell like roses, I said it should not smell like sewer-gas. SEM agreed and explained the reasons in their email. But, like I said, I can't say for sure until I get some SEM rods and try them. I think it's important to get this right, all B.S. aside.

[Mike Messer]

I know it is posible to make Ebonite that does not smell awful for weeks after it is cut, ref. my post about the Guidici stems. Bottom line, if I were a Pipe Dealer or a Collector, what I would call premium, state-of-the-art, I am sure would not make me sick at my stomach to smell. Think about that. I may be of some help to you more experienced guys in that I have not adjusted to accept this, and maybe, neither should you.

[ToddJohnson]

I know it is posible to make Ebonite that does not smell awful for weeks after it is cut, ref. my post about the Guidici stems. Bottom line, if I were a Pipe Dealer or a Collector, what I would call premium, state-of-the-art, I am sure would not make me sick at my stomach to smell. Think about that. I may be of some help to you more experienced guys in that I have not adjusted to accept this, and maybe, neither should you.

You may be sure that your "posts are accurate," but they're not. In fact, they're basically a whole bunch of nonsense. Vulcanite from every single source in the world smells bad--including from SEM--and just because you've convinced yourself otherwise doesn't make it so. There are, of course, good reasons to reject vulcanite--too many metal inclusions, won't polish up to a mirror shine, bubbles, etc. Smell, however, is not a reasonable or useful criterion by which to judge its' quality. You've pronounced your premolded bits "superior" in quality to the rod stock you got, but you don't have even the faintest clue of which standards to judge by. I'll give you a hint though; drilling an eighth inch hole and then smelling it to see if it gives off a "sewer gas" smell isn't one of them.

TJ