First Metal Lathe

Bill the Conqueror · Post by **Bill the Conqueror** » Fri Dec 28, 2007 6:50 pm

Hi All,
I'm new here, and I really enjoy the site. I don't have a lathe, and I was wondering if a 7"x12" is sufficient for at least the majority of lathe-related tasks. If that's too small, is 7"x14" that much of an improvement?

Specifically, I was looking at the model found here:
http://www.cumminstools.com/browse.cfm/4,876.htm

I'm not brand picky, so if I need to look at some others I'm more than open to considering them.
Any thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks.

RadDavis · Post by **RadDavis** » Fri Dec 28, 2007 7:01 pm

It depends on what you are going to be doing. If you are going to be turning stummels, then you should probably be looking for at least a 9" swing.

If you're gonna get a 7" swing, I'd go for the 14".

Whatever you get, you're gonna want a bigger one.

Rad

JHowell · Post by **JHowell** » Fri Dec 28, 2007 10:15 pm

Rad is right, you need more swing, not more length. Besides, those $300 import 7" lathes are notorious pieces of crap. Underpowered, flimsy, plastic gears, blech. I actually can't think of a good 7" lathe. I used a 6" Atlas for years but really can't recommend it. A Jet 9X20" would be where I'd start, new, or I'd take what you were going to spend on the 7" and watch Craigslist and Ebay. It takes some luck and knowledge to get a usable Logan or South Bend for $300, but it can be done. My SB 9C was $350, my SB 11 ($250) was running when I got it, but I've taken it apart for restoration, and I got a Logan 10" with a wrecked tailstock and power feed for just over $200. I plan to fix it up with a turret I picked up, but it could have been put into service for pipemaking with an ebay tailstock if I'd needed it. Just save your nickels and keep your eyes open. Every bloke needs a lathe.

LatakiaLover · Post by **LatakiaLover** » Fri Dec 28, 2007 10:25 pm

JHowell wrote:Every bloke needs a lathe.

If only because they are so light, easy, and convenient to move around.

Bill the Conqueror · Post by **Bill the Conqueror** » Fri Dec 28, 2007 11:44 pm

JHowell wrote:Besides, those $300 import 7" lathes are notorious pieces of crap. Underpowered, flimsy, plastic gears, blech. I actually can't think of a good 7" lathe.

Well, I certainly don't want any "notorious pieces of crap" in my shop!

You also said: "It takes some luck and knowledge to get a usable Logan or South Bend for $300, but it can be done."

I have zero knowledge of lathes - anything that I must know before I buy?

Other than that, I guess I'll just hope for a cheap, used 9" Logan or South Bend. Thanks for the info.

JHowell · Post by **JHowell** » Sat Dec 29, 2007 3:04 am

The first piece of advice is to be patient. The second is to haunt the machine forums, just reading about the sort of deals people are getting and the problems they are having. Every "DAMN! I should have checked that" discussion will make you a better shopper. Yahoo Groups have both South Bend and Logan newsgroups. The Manufacturing Forum

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/index.php

is an excellent source of information and entertainment, has an good SB section. You will become aware of all the other lathe brands that could be used. Hardinge second operation lathes, for instance, are fabulously well made machines that can go for as little as $300. They have no leadscrew or power feeds, but are perfect for pipe work. Other workshop-type lathes are Daltons and Atlases.

George, there are apartment dwellers who have lathes. A South Bend 9" is movable, disassembled, by one person, and can be mounted on a bench with casters. For precision work it should be locked down and leveled, but a rollaround lathe is fine for pipemaking. In times past, when people more commonly made things to amuse themselves, there were many lathes that were meant for home use, and were certainly not impossible to move. Even a cabinet model 10" or 11" lathe is no less movable than, say, a refrigerator, or a piano. It's all a matter of priorities.

LatakiaLover · Post by **LatakiaLover** » Sat Dec 29, 2007 4:47 am

Indeed, I'd have a quality lathe for no other reason than I love fine tools and precision in general, if getting a non-Asian one didn't require so much implied stuff. Basically, making a hobby of them just to know how to buy, refurbish, and maintain one.

Like Balkan Sobranie 759 piled high on shop shelves for a dollar a tin, the age of affordable, new-in-box American/English/German made machine tools is a time I miss very much.

Bill the Conqueror · Post by **Bill the Conqueror** » Sat Dec 29, 2007 11:31 am

Thanks a lot, I really appreciate the advice. If anyone thinks of anything else, please feel free to respond or PM me. I'm a total newbie, so even basic stuff will be very helpful. Thanks!

JHowell · Post by **JHowell** » Sat Dec 29, 2007 2:40 pm

LatakiaLover wrote:Indeed, I'd have a quality lathe for no other reason than I love fine tools and precision in general, if getting a non-Asian one didn't require so much implied stuff. Basically, making a hobby of them just to know how to buy, refurbish, and maintain one.

Like Balkan Sobranie 759 piled high on shop shelves for a dollar a tin, the age of affordable, new-in-box American/English/German made machine tools is a time I miss very much.

I suppose the "implied stuff" is mostly a matter of selection and cost. A new Jet 9X20 is around a grand. These lathes are somewhat looked down upon by industry but are not meant to be industrial machines, they're meant for hobbyists and occasional users, much like the small South Bends and Logans in their day. They are sufficiently accurate and durable for pipemaking. The same amount *can* get a South Bend in really good shape, especially if you don't insist on a quick change gearbox. A SB doesn't have to be like riding a vintage Norton, they were made to be easy to maintain and adjust, and there are still ones around that haven't been crashed or run to the point where they need to be rebuilt. Reading the Manufacturing Forum will show a lively debate between those who say that old American iron (in good condition) is better because the intrinsic quality is higher, and others who say the imports (at a certain price) are just fine, move on and stop living in the past. When you get to the point of spending several thousand on a lathe (which I never will) you will encounter imports that are better than South Bends ever were. You'll also encounter used Hardinges, Monarchs, Rivetts, Clausings . . . and so it goes.

Back to earth. Most of us cringe at going very deep into three figures for a lathe, which means a choice between cheap imports and lucky finds of American iron. I tend toward the latter. If you look at pictures on Will Purdy's site you'll see an Atlas -- I didn't look closely but it's probably a 10 or 12 inch. Those aren't terribly expensive. My 1920s Hardinge just blew a start capacitor so it's not a great example, but it cost $700 and ran for four years with absolutely no tweaking or fixing, I never took it apart or did anything other than run, clean, and oil. Once I get the capacitor fixed it could run forever, and it's dead accurate. The trick is to buy a lathe from a guy who took care of it. If a lathe has been cleaned and oiled and not abused it will have as good a chance of running for another 50 years as an import, some would say a better chance. A couple of times I've wound up stumbling upon neglected wrecks, wanting to save them from the scrapper, and dragging them home to restore. And a couple of times I've been lucky enough to get old machines that were worn and dirty but essentially usable. I apologize if I've made it seem that running old American iron requires machine tool restoration skills. It doesn't have to be done that way.

On the Manufacturing Forum, search for posts by Forrest Addy. Many great perspectives on machine condition and wear, and he tended to elevate the discussion. On the Yahoo SB group, search for Dennis Turk.

Frank · Post by **Frank** » Sat Dec 29, 2007 4:28 pm

JHowell wrote:.... old American iron (in good condition) is better because the intrinsic quality is higher, and others who say the imports (at a certain price) are just fine, move on and stop living in the past.

My 2 cents worth.
"Old American iron" could well be a better quality steel than the Chinese imports, thus showing less wear over time. I believe it was in the 1950's that Mao wanted to stick it to those "damn Capitalist Yankees", so he had virtually every peasant pulled from the land to make steel in small backyard furnaces. As you can imagine, they ended up with tons of useless, ultra low grade steel, not to mention a devastating famine because almost no one was working the land. Perhaps they're still re-refining that old shit steel & sticking it to the "damn Yankees" by sending it here as cheap lathes.

I hasten to add, I myself have one of those cheap (± $1500) Smithy combos from China. Both the lathe & the mill run vibration free with the chucks mounted. They're not the most accurate of machines, but I've never had a mechanical problem in more than a dozen years.

JHowell · Post by **JHowell** » Sat Dec 29, 2007 8:05 pm

It's worth mentioning the difference between Taiwanese and Chinese imports. The former are generally better, and have better metallurgy. Tiawanese lathes made for industry can be excellent. Of course, those tend to be larger than one would want at home. I'd love to have a 13" Standard Modern (Canadian). A friend has a 14" TRW (Taiwan) in his business that has 40,000 hours on the spindle and will still hold a tenth. Everyone has a different mix of determining factors -- price, room, rigging.