Just to round off what Jeff is saying, you can do all your stummel shaping on an inexpensive motor & sanding disk setup, i.e. cheap, stripped down bench grinder. To accurately drill and turn your stems, especially the tenon, you need a small metal cutting lathe.
Unless you're an experienced woodturner, you run the risk of destroying your stummel trying to turn it on a wood lathe. There are all kinds of push cuts, pull cuts, shave cuts, scrape cuts & more, & when & how to use them. Just learning the basics can take quite a while, plus decent woodturning tools aren't cheap either.
Incidently, if you don't have a belt sander, you will need a bench grinder to sharpen your cutting tools, whether for metal/vulcanite/acrylic or wood cutting.
Lathe accessories help.
Turning a stummel on a wood lathe isn't that difficult. My only experience with a lathe before starting pipe making was turning cylinders for fly rod reel seats. 200+ pipes in and I have yet to destroy a stummel. (Unless you count the one long shank I broke the shank off of. But that wasn't the fault of my turning skills. I moved my hand to the wrong place and snapped off the shank.Frank wrote:Unless you're an experienced woodturner, you run the risk of destroying your stummel trying to turn it on a wood lathe. There are all kinds of push cuts, pull cuts, shave cuts, scrape cuts & more, & when & how to use them. Just learning the basics can take quite a while, plus decent woodturning tools aren't cheap either.
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KurtHuhn
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I agree. In fact, I find a wood lathe to be more intuitive to stummel work than a metal lathe. With David's help in another thread, I've figured out something that has been vexing me for ages. I'm convinced that, where wood is concerned, you can do anything you damn well please. Hell, I've even cut tenons in vucanite on a wood lathe before.
What it all boils down to is using the tool you're most comfortable with. If a wood lathe is your tool of choice, then bloody hell, use it. And make us all proud.
What it all boils down to is using the tool you're most comfortable with. If a wood lathe is your tool of choice, then bloody hell, use it. And make us all proud.
It's funny, I can't remember the last time I checked the board (lost touch when it was hacked and I was busy moving and not making pipes) but I sort of remember this topic going around in one form or another.
The question is not so much what you can't do on a wood lathe as what you CAN do on a metal lathe. Anything you can do on a wood lathe you can do on a metal lathe, the latter given a big enough swing and a high enough spindle speed (important to note that a 10" swing is a small wood lathe but a big -- for the home shop -- metal lathe).
The reverse is not perfectly true. Having a sliding carriage, cross slide, and compound rest allows the turning of correctly sized cylinders and perfectly square shoulders with ease and speed. This is handy. Take tenons, for instance. While this can be accomplished on a wood lathe, or the inability to do so compensated for with design, it is (with apologies to Mark Twain) like a dog walking on its hind legs.
With most wood lathes, especially the midi-class machines, the tailstock does not automatically center a bit on the work being turned. It rattles back and forth in an arc of a few degrees and locks down somewhere in that arc, and there is no provision for adjustment. An alert operator can manage to spot the drill on center and lock the tailstock down, but it's an extra step and a possible error, especially if the tailstock is not centered to and parallel with the bed. Contrast that with a metal lathe where the tailstock moves laterally not at all, can be adjusted to put center on center, and will stay there. If you are shaping first, having a tailstock that gives an accurate center is nearly as important as if you are spinning the stummel to bore it.
I have a woodworking tool rest attachment for my quick change tool post on my Logan 10" lathe, and can do any scraper or gouge work that I previously did with my wood lathe. Having done it both ways, I say that the metal lathe is better in every respect. It is more rigid, vibrates less, leaves a better finish for a given tool, and gives many more options in creating whatever I wish to create.
Now, the bad news. It is big, it is heavy, it is immobile, it is expensive. Excluding machines like the Taig which are fine for stems but have limited capacity otherwise, a lathe that is good for making pipes will be too much for one person to lift. Spending $500 on a new import metal lathe is apt to be a waste of money. Not a total waste, mind you, because the worst lathe in the world is good for something, but apt to have insufficient swing or power. $500 spent with luck and knowledge could get you a nice old piece of domestic iron, but that won't help the apartment dweller much, and you can waste lots more money than that on old machinery without getting something usable if you don't know what you're doing. Don't ask how I know.
Let me take back the part about a cheap metal lathe being a waste of money in light of the trend toward shaping, then drilling. If I were shaping first and had to pick one lathe, it would be a metal lathe, even if I had to settle for a Harbor Freight piece of junk. Even a 7" swing will give enough room for boring Danish-style. It is apt to be underpowered for driving a spoon bit, but a Delta midi won't be much, if any, better. It will come with a 3-jaw chuck that can hold the spoon bit, a drill chuck and live and dead centers for the tailstock, and a handful of toolbits that can be used to make stems and rings and whatnot. It wil probably also come with a 4-jaw chuck of some sort which, if stummels were kept smallish, could be used with two jaws removed to drill first. Even if it's necessary (because swing over carriage is less than swing over bed) to move the carriage to the rear and put the tailstock in front of it to drill, it's still easier and more accurate than a drill press where you have to unlock everything and crank the table up and down to drill a deep enough hole.
In conclusion, a wood lathe is usable for any pipemaking task, as Kurt has proven. They are relatively cheap, and relatively portable. Considering how many pipes have been made with no power tools other than a hand drill, a metal lathe is not a necessity to make a pipe. But for the maker who aspires to make pipes for more than his own satisfaction and who has the room and the means, a good metal lathe is a great advantage.
Jack
The question is not so much what you can't do on a wood lathe as what you CAN do on a metal lathe. Anything you can do on a wood lathe you can do on a metal lathe, the latter given a big enough swing and a high enough spindle speed (important to note that a 10" swing is a small wood lathe but a big -- for the home shop -- metal lathe).
The reverse is not perfectly true. Having a sliding carriage, cross slide, and compound rest allows the turning of correctly sized cylinders and perfectly square shoulders with ease and speed. This is handy. Take tenons, for instance. While this can be accomplished on a wood lathe, or the inability to do so compensated for with design, it is (with apologies to Mark Twain) like a dog walking on its hind legs.
With most wood lathes, especially the midi-class machines, the tailstock does not automatically center a bit on the work being turned. It rattles back and forth in an arc of a few degrees and locks down somewhere in that arc, and there is no provision for adjustment. An alert operator can manage to spot the drill on center and lock the tailstock down, but it's an extra step and a possible error, especially if the tailstock is not centered to and parallel with the bed. Contrast that with a metal lathe where the tailstock moves laterally not at all, can be adjusted to put center on center, and will stay there. If you are shaping first, having a tailstock that gives an accurate center is nearly as important as if you are spinning the stummel to bore it.
I have a woodworking tool rest attachment for my quick change tool post on my Logan 10" lathe, and can do any scraper or gouge work that I previously did with my wood lathe. Having done it both ways, I say that the metal lathe is better in every respect. It is more rigid, vibrates less, leaves a better finish for a given tool, and gives many more options in creating whatever I wish to create.
Now, the bad news. It is big, it is heavy, it is immobile, it is expensive. Excluding machines like the Taig which are fine for stems but have limited capacity otherwise, a lathe that is good for making pipes will be too much for one person to lift. Spending $500 on a new import metal lathe is apt to be a waste of money. Not a total waste, mind you, because the worst lathe in the world is good for something, but apt to have insufficient swing or power. $500 spent with luck and knowledge could get you a nice old piece of domestic iron, but that won't help the apartment dweller much, and you can waste lots more money than that on old machinery without getting something usable if you don't know what you're doing. Don't ask how I know.
Let me take back the part about a cheap metal lathe being a waste of money in light of the trend toward shaping, then drilling. If I were shaping first and had to pick one lathe, it would be a metal lathe, even if I had to settle for a Harbor Freight piece of junk. Even a 7" swing will give enough room for boring Danish-style. It is apt to be underpowered for driving a spoon bit, but a Delta midi won't be much, if any, better. It will come with a 3-jaw chuck that can hold the spoon bit, a drill chuck and live and dead centers for the tailstock, and a handful of toolbits that can be used to make stems and rings and whatnot. It wil probably also come with a 4-jaw chuck of some sort which, if stummels were kept smallish, could be used with two jaws removed to drill first. Even if it's necessary (because swing over carriage is less than swing over bed) to move the carriage to the rear and put the tailstock in front of it to drill, it's still easier and more accurate than a drill press where you have to unlock everything and crank the table up and down to drill a deep enough hole.
In conclusion, a wood lathe is usable for any pipemaking task, as Kurt has proven. They are relatively cheap, and relatively portable. Considering how many pipes have been made with no power tools other than a hand drill, a metal lathe is not a necessity to make a pipe. But for the maker who aspires to make pipes for more than his own satisfaction and who has the room and the means, a good metal lathe is a great advantage.
Jack
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KurtHuhn
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This I can agree with. The only thing I can't agree with is the assertion that you must have a metal lathe if you're at all serious about pipe making.JHowell wrote:But for the maker who aspires to make pipes for more than his own satisfaction and who has the room and the means, a good metal lathe is a great advantage.
Then again, I've made a successful career out of not following in everyone else's footsteps, and finding creative solutions to problems that are outside the realm of commonly accepted "fact". So, perhaps I tend to lean toward iconoclastic ideals. Not to the level of Random, mind you. That *can* be taken too far....
>>JHowell wrote:
But for the maker who aspires to make pipes for more than his own satisfaction and who has the room and the means, a good metal lathe is a great advantage.
This I can agree with. The only thing I can't agree with is the assertion that you must have a metal lathe if you're at all serious about pipe making. <<
Which is an assertion I never made, I trust you're not attributing it to me. The quote you posted accurately reflects my sentiments. The ability to turn accurate cylinders and square shoulders is a great (and, I would think, self-evident) advantage to the serious pipemaker, and I believe that the aspiring serious pipemaker is better advised to buy a metal lathe, if possible, than to forego it as entirely unnecessary. Which is probably something you didn't say, either. My remarks are not to imply that owning a metal lathe is a prerequisite to being considered "serious," rather simply to make the point that such machines have their place in the shops of most serious pipemakers for good reason.
Other than a drill of some sort and a way to remove material of some sort, no tool is essential to pipemaking. Hands and eyes are more important than tools. You are justifiably proud of what you have done with your own tools and methods, and if we argue whether your pipes are what they are because of or in spite of your choice of lathes it is, I trust, with good humor. I suspect that if you owned a lathe like my Logan (http://jwh.fastmail.fm/essaysfolder.htm/Logan.html) you would find that you would lose none of your options with the wood lathe and would find uses for the metal lathe's extra capabilities. Of course, I could be wrong.
I hope that sounds as civil as I mean it to sound. If all goes well and if you're going to Columbus I'll see you there and we can clear things up over a beverage if it seems that I am casting aspersions in any way. Perusing ebay, now, I find a couple of interesting listings with which I have no connection whatsoever, just posting them for the sake of conversation:
http://cgi.ebay.com/2-Taig-Micro-lathes ... dZViewItem
I haven't looked at the For Sale section, but this posting seems to imply that Darius is making pipes again. News to me, but then I've just recently crawled out from under a rock. Nothing wrong with Taigs, but you have to be careful with abrasive dust, which is absolute heck on lathe ways.
Now, here's an interesting machine, depending entirely on what it goes for. $400 start, no bids yet.
http://cgi.ebay.com/Craftsman-12-Metal- ... dZViewItem
This is the sort of lathe could be a useful and inexpensive pipemaking tool. Not necessarily this one, of course, I know nothing about it and would never give a specific recommendation to buy a specific machine, but this sort of machine in general. 12" is a great size for pipes if you have the room. Lots of space to swing a scraper around, bed is long enough to get the tailstock out of the way. Something like this may seem impossibly heavy, but it can be disassembled with relative ease and moved by one person in an SUV or station wagon/minivan. Headstock comes off, tailstock comes off, QC box and leadscrew come off, carriage comes off, bed weighs maybe 80-90 lbs and is heaviest part. Leave the bench if necessary. For a long time I was discouraged from buying a larger lathe by the prospect of hiring a rigger to move it until I discovered that they come apart and go back together very easily.
This lathe appears to have led a life of home shop use. That's good. People who buy their machines with their own money tend not to abuse them like people working in production shops, where the machines are not only run until they wear out but bear the brunt of every disgruntled worker's wrath. Craftsman/Atlas lathes appear in a variety of forms. This one has flat ways, which is not great, but will probably have tapered roller headstock bearings which are easy to adjust and replace if necessary. It was never intended for industrial use, but thousands upon thousands of them were made and many still reside in basements and garages waiting for children and widows to get tired of hanging things on them. Last year I just missed a Craftsman 12" that a lady was giving away, she just wanted it out of her basement. They are slightly inferior to light industrial machines like South Bends and Logans, just as those machines are inferior to real industrial workhorses like Monarchs and Hardinges and Rivetts and American Pacemakers. However, if not worn out they can be entirely adequate for pipemaking and will usually go for much less than a South Bend. The equivalent SB (13" or Heavy 10 or even a nice 9A) in similar condition similarly tooled could go for thousands. The QC might drive the price up on this one. It's not necessary for pipemaking and deals can be had on lathes that lack it. If this lathe cost $1000 and I didn't have a thing for old machines I'd buy a new Jet 9x20 instead. But if it cost $500-700 and I needed a lathe, hmmmm.
There are lots of different ways to go, and dozens of different lathe manufacturers. It's easy to get burned on old machines, of course, but if you watch ebay and craigslist and (especially) happen to live in the rust belt you'll be sure to see something in your area eventually that you can inspect before buying. What to look for and look out for is another long monologue.
New and used imports are also an option, both from catalogs and ebay. The home shop volume leader is the 9x20, where you sort of get what you pay for. Jets seem to have one of the better reputations for this home shop class. Almost any owner of an import 9x20 has had to fix or replace something or flush sand out of the castings, but it seems Jets take fewer fixes than some others.
If you have the space to think big, things really get interesting. An import 13x40 or even 14x40 will never make it down the stairs into your basement, but will be a totally different class of machine than a 9X20, and sometimes used Jets and Standard Moderns and TRSes go for less than a grand precisely because they're so darned big. I have friend who bought a Tiawanese-made, Japanese-market Jet (not a word of English on it, not even "Jet") 13X40 for $800. Great materials, great durability, holds a tenth. I'm not suggesting for a moment that this much lathe is necessary to make a pipe, but it would be a pleasure. Unless you had to buy a lot of tooling, of course, or didn't like changing 60-lb. chucks.
Ok, that's madness. Don't buy a 14X40, I just want you to buy one so I can live through you. I've always loved lathes, and have spent the last year immersed in them. The Logan is done, until I convert it to an 11" this Winter, I have an 11" SB that is exactly 40 years older than I am that's about halfway done (cost $200 and was running, but came from a school and was painted a greasy white with all the handles different colors, blecccch), my beloved Hardinge second operation lathe that I use nearly every day, a couple of 9" SBs that I bought as intended future restoration projects but that a local pipemaker friend may be interested in . . . seems like once you get one old lathe the others catch the smell and follow you home. One day they'll all be restored and set up for specific tasks, and it will all make sense (he told his wife confidently).
Ahhh, for a Hardinge HVL-H with an air bearing tailstock, extra accuracy option . . . or a Monarch ee, if I could have it with some sort of magic spell that would keep the electronics from ever going pop . . . While I'm sure to a real machinist I sound like a teenager talking about women, I have learned a lot about lathes on my sabbatical and could probably help someone avoid making a mistake or two.
Good night,
Jack
But for the maker who aspires to make pipes for more than his own satisfaction and who has the room and the means, a good metal lathe is a great advantage.
This I can agree with. The only thing I can't agree with is the assertion that you must have a metal lathe if you're at all serious about pipe making. <<
Which is an assertion I never made, I trust you're not attributing it to me. The quote you posted accurately reflects my sentiments. The ability to turn accurate cylinders and square shoulders is a great (and, I would think, self-evident) advantage to the serious pipemaker, and I believe that the aspiring serious pipemaker is better advised to buy a metal lathe, if possible, than to forego it as entirely unnecessary. Which is probably something you didn't say, either. My remarks are not to imply that owning a metal lathe is a prerequisite to being considered "serious," rather simply to make the point that such machines have their place in the shops of most serious pipemakers for good reason.
Other than a drill of some sort and a way to remove material of some sort, no tool is essential to pipemaking. Hands and eyes are more important than tools. You are justifiably proud of what you have done with your own tools and methods, and if we argue whether your pipes are what they are because of or in spite of your choice of lathes it is, I trust, with good humor. I suspect that if you owned a lathe like my Logan (http://jwh.fastmail.fm/essaysfolder.htm/Logan.html) you would find that you would lose none of your options with the wood lathe and would find uses for the metal lathe's extra capabilities. Of course, I could be wrong.
I hope that sounds as civil as I mean it to sound. If all goes well and if you're going to Columbus I'll see you there and we can clear things up over a beverage if it seems that I am casting aspersions in any way. Perusing ebay, now, I find a couple of interesting listings with which I have no connection whatsoever, just posting them for the sake of conversation:
http://cgi.ebay.com/2-Taig-Micro-lathes ... dZViewItem
I haven't looked at the For Sale section, but this posting seems to imply that Darius is making pipes again. News to me, but then I've just recently crawled out from under a rock. Nothing wrong with Taigs, but you have to be careful with abrasive dust, which is absolute heck on lathe ways.
Now, here's an interesting machine, depending entirely on what it goes for. $400 start, no bids yet.
http://cgi.ebay.com/Craftsman-12-Metal- ... dZViewItem
This is the sort of lathe could be a useful and inexpensive pipemaking tool. Not necessarily this one, of course, I know nothing about it and would never give a specific recommendation to buy a specific machine, but this sort of machine in general. 12" is a great size for pipes if you have the room. Lots of space to swing a scraper around, bed is long enough to get the tailstock out of the way. Something like this may seem impossibly heavy, but it can be disassembled with relative ease and moved by one person in an SUV or station wagon/minivan. Headstock comes off, tailstock comes off, QC box and leadscrew come off, carriage comes off, bed weighs maybe 80-90 lbs and is heaviest part. Leave the bench if necessary. For a long time I was discouraged from buying a larger lathe by the prospect of hiring a rigger to move it until I discovered that they come apart and go back together very easily.
This lathe appears to have led a life of home shop use. That's good. People who buy their machines with their own money tend not to abuse them like people working in production shops, where the machines are not only run until they wear out but bear the brunt of every disgruntled worker's wrath. Craftsman/Atlas lathes appear in a variety of forms. This one has flat ways, which is not great, but will probably have tapered roller headstock bearings which are easy to adjust and replace if necessary. It was never intended for industrial use, but thousands upon thousands of them were made and many still reside in basements and garages waiting for children and widows to get tired of hanging things on them. Last year I just missed a Craftsman 12" that a lady was giving away, she just wanted it out of her basement. They are slightly inferior to light industrial machines like South Bends and Logans, just as those machines are inferior to real industrial workhorses like Monarchs and Hardinges and Rivetts and American Pacemakers. However, if not worn out they can be entirely adequate for pipemaking and will usually go for much less than a South Bend. The equivalent SB (13" or Heavy 10 or even a nice 9A) in similar condition similarly tooled could go for thousands. The QC might drive the price up on this one. It's not necessary for pipemaking and deals can be had on lathes that lack it. If this lathe cost $1000 and I didn't have a thing for old machines I'd buy a new Jet 9x20 instead. But if it cost $500-700 and I needed a lathe, hmmmm.
There are lots of different ways to go, and dozens of different lathe manufacturers. It's easy to get burned on old machines, of course, but if you watch ebay and craigslist and (especially) happen to live in the rust belt you'll be sure to see something in your area eventually that you can inspect before buying. What to look for and look out for is another long monologue.
New and used imports are also an option, both from catalogs and ebay. The home shop volume leader is the 9x20, where you sort of get what you pay for. Jets seem to have one of the better reputations for this home shop class. Almost any owner of an import 9x20 has had to fix or replace something or flush sand out of the castings, but it seems Jets take fewer fixes than some others.
If you have the space to think big, things really get interesting. An import 13x40 or even 14x40 will never make it down the stairs into your basement, but will be a totally different class of machine than a 9X20, and sometimes used Jets and Standard Moderns and TRSes go for less than a grand precisely because they're so darned big. I have friend who bought a Tiawanese-made, Japanese-market Jet (not a word of English on it, not even "Jet") 13X40 for $800. Great materials, great durability, holds a tenth. I'm not suggesting for a moment that this much lathe is necessary to make a pipe, but it would be a pleasure. Unless you had to buy a lot of tooling, of course, or didn't like changing 60-lb. chucks.
Ok, that's madness. Don't buy a 14X40, I just want you to buy one so I can live through you. I've always loved lathes, and have spent the last year immersed in them. The Logan is done, until I convert it to an 11" this Winter, I have an 11" SB that is exactly 40 years older than I am that's about halfway done (cost $200 and was running, but came from a school and was painted a greasy white with all the handles different colors, blecccch), my beloved Hardinge second operation lathe that I use nearly every day, a couple of 9" SBs that I bought as intended future restoration projects but that a local pipemaker friend may be interested in . . . seems like once you get one old lathe the others catch the smell and follow you home. One day they'll all be restored and set up for specific tasks, and it will all make sense (he told his wife confidently).
Ahhh, for a Hardinge HVL-H with an air bearing tailstock, extra accuracy option . . . or a Monarch ee, if I could have it with some sort of magic spell that would keep the electronics from ever going pop . . . While I'm sure to a real machinist I sound like a teenager talking about women, I have learned a lot about lathes on my sabbatical and could probably help someone avoid making a mistake or two.
Good night,
Jack
Wow. All excellent advice, Jack.
Unfortunately, 10+ years too late. Guess I"ll have to live with my import combo 12x20. Needs a bit of a tune up to remove some play, but I don't have the energy to figure it all out again. Pity you don't live round the corner from me. Mind you, the only real problem I ever had with it was the oil level glass breaking, & that was my fault.
Unfortunately, 10+ years too late. Guess I"ll have to live with my import combo 12x20. Needs a bit of a tune up to remove some play, but I don't have the energy to figure it all out again. Pity you don't live round the corner from me. Mind you, the only real problem I ever had with it was the oil level glass breaking, & that was my fault.
Regards,
Frank.
------------------
Grouch Happens!
People usually get the gods they deserve - Terry Pratchett
Frank.
------------------
Grouch Happens!
People usually get the gods they deserve - Terry Pratchett
Well gentlemen I’m certainly grateful for all the help and for folk’s like Jack whom went above and beyond, however I think I’m more confused now then before I started, what’s the old saying ignorance is bliss.
I’ve heard from a lot of folks where if they could pick one lathe (and be able to afford it) they would chose some sort of metal lathe, I’m saving up for one and have a few friends and relatives keeping an eye out for me. The challenge of course will be to convince the chief financial officer (my wife) of the ROI on a one. Since at this time my primary problem is my drilling I will see if I can find a DP that will work, possibly even a used one because as stated a good new one isn’t cheap. If I can’t find one that fits the bill I my step up to the midi because even though my goal would be to get a metal lathe I’m sure I would get enough use out of the midi to keep it around.
There is another aspect to this topic that at times gives me pause about lathes and that is the artisan of the old one at a time every pipe is its own work of art, which seems to be lost in our need to make things faster. I’m not saying those whom use lathes are not artists on the contrary using the lathe is an art itself, but I think you know what I mean. It seems that the moment a lathe comes in to the picture you’re now trying to justify it, and pipe making becomes a job which defeats why I do it, to get away from my fast paced hitech job. Don’t get me wrong I have the dream of becoming a professional pipemaker and having someone willing to pay phenomenal prices for my art. But I understand the reality of it as well if your going to support your family you need to make and sell a certain amount of pipes a week and without a lathe most would not be able to do so.
Well now that I’m complete off topic I would like to thank everyone again, I now have an idea of what to look for at least and can try to make a educated decision.
I’ve heard from a lot of folks where if they could pick one lathe (and be able to afford it) they would chose some sort of metal lathe, I’m saving up for one and have a few friends and relatives keeping an eye out for me. The challenge of course will be to convince the chief financial officer (my wife) of the ROI on a one. Since at this time my primary problem is my drilling I will see if I can find a DP that will work, possibly even a used one because as stated a good new one isn’t cheap. If I can’t find one that fits the bill I my step up to the midi because even though my goal would be to get a metal lathe I’m sure I would get enough use out of the midi to keep it around.
There is another aspect to this topic that at times gives me pause about lathes and that is the artisan of the old one at a time every pipe is its own work of art, which seems to be lost in our need to make things faster. I’m not saying those whom use lathes are not artists on the contrary using the lathe is an art itself, but I think you know what I mean. It seems that the moment a lathe comes in to the picture you’re now trying to justify it, and pipe making becomes a job which defeats why I do it, to get away from my fast paced hitech job. Don’t get me wrong I have the dream of becoming a professional pipemaker and having someone willing to pay phenomenal prices for my art. But I understand the reality of it as well if your going to support your family you need to make and sell a certain amount of pipes a week and without a lathe most would not be able to do so.
Well now that I’m complete off topic I would like to thank everyone again, I now have an idea of what to look for at least and can try to make a educated decision.
-
KurtHuhn
- Site Admin
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- Location: United States/Rhode Island
Absolutely not. The assertion was made elsewhere in another thread. I would never do that.JHowell wrote:This I can agree with. The only thing I can't agree with is the assertion that you must have a metal lathe if you're at all serious about pipe making.JHowell wrote:
But for the maker who aspires to make pipes for more than his own satisfaction and who has the room and the means, a good metal lathe is a great advantage.
Which is an assertion I never made, I trust you're not attributing it to me.
I agree completely. 100%. If I had a place to put a big Logan, Atlas, or South Bend, I'd probably already have one. The thing is, my workshop, with the exception of my dust collector and sandblasting setup, is currently an 8'x8' raised platform in the basement.Other than a drill of some sort and a way to remove material of some sort, no tool is essential to pipemaking. Hands and eyes are more important than tools. You are justifiably proud of what you have done with your own tools and methods, and if we argue whether your pipes are what they are because of or in spite of your choice of lathes it is, I trust, with good humor. I suspect that if you owned a lathe like my Logan (http://jwh.fastmail.fm/essaysfolder.htm/Logan.html) you would find that you would lose none of your options with the wood lathe and would find uses for the metal lathe's extra capabilities. Of course, I could be wrong.
I do think that the choice of tools makes the pipes what they are. However, the existence of a particular tool doesn't preclude a certain pipe or feature. It just means that you have to go about constructing that feature differently. So... because of, or in spite of? I have no idea. Probably a little of both.
I will probably buy a metal lathe in the future when I have the space built to hold it. And when I do, it's going to be a big, gorgeous thing like your Logan. That said, I've already decided that my next tool purchase is a big heavy-duty Lathe from Nova - it has a bunch of features that I need right now, not only for pipe making, but also for other turning projects that I want to do. Things like outboard turning, adjustable tailstock, tons of power, and lots of mass (to cut down on vibration).
Regrettably, I cannot make it to Columbus this year. There's just too damn much going on right now to make it possible. I need to start a thread somewhere begging for someone to pick me up a couple tins of tobacco to add to my collection.I hope that sounds as civil as I mean it to sound. If all goes well and if you're going to Columbus I'll see you there and we can clear things up over a beverage if it seems that I am casting aspersions in any way.
The short of it is that I agree that a metal lathe has it's uses. Of that there can be no doubt.
Is that sort of like bits of old motorcycles? I've had to resort to storing crates of those in my father's basement when they started to overrun the available space here.seems like once you get one old lathe the others catch the smell and follow you home. One day they'll all be restored and set up for specific tasks, and it will all make sense (he told his wife confidently).
jeeper wrote:SNIP
There is another aspect to this topic that at times gives me pause about lathes and that is the artisan of the old one at a time every pipe is its own work of art, which seems to be lost in our need to make things faster. I’m not saying those whom use lathes are not artists on the contrary using the lathe is an art itself, but I think you know what I mean. It seems that the moment a lathe comes in to the picture you’re now trying to justify it, and pipe making becomes a job which defeats why I do it, to get away from my fast paced hitech job. SNIP
You didn't say where you live, or I missed it. If you're in Cleveland, easy, you can probably find a good-enough-for-what-it's-for used lathe for a few hundred. I bought a perfectly functional South Bend 9" Junior at an auction for $175, and they can be practically free given contacts and luck. Shops are closing or going CNC; for old manual machines sometimes your only competition is the scrap guy. If you live in Phoenix, well, that's different. Something I left out entirely is the used wood lathe. They're cheaper still, possibly comparable to drill presses in price, and, in my opinion, far more useful. Of course, depends where you live. I've seen some old monsters for under $100. I fully believe that every bloke (not just every pipemaker) should have a lathe, and also that if you have the time and patience to look and learn and make friends, you can find some sort of lathe for whatever you can afford. My first lathe, a 6" Atlas, was free.
Speed is not the issue, and I doubt that if you suddenly woke up with every tool you could possibly want for making pipes that you'd suddenly be overwhelmed by the pressure to make pipes fast. You do what you do, and over the years as you find tools that seem to aid accuracy and consistency, you pick them up as you can afford. Some wind up with every tool there is, others acquire skills with simpler tooling early on and never feel the need for more stuff. There are pipemakers who are very accurate and consistent with a hand drill, and I don't think anyone here really gives a rat's posterior how anyone else makes pipes, we just pick up the ideas that make sense and let the others fall. Hands and eyes are the thing. Lock Kurt in my shop and he'll make his pipes, lock me in his and I'll make mine. And if his briar is better than mine I'm not coming out.
Jack
Jack,
Very well put, indeed. The reasoning within your post is quite similar to that which I implied, though obviously did not clearly articulate in mine. The advantages offered by a metal lathe and the entry price required for a passable unit ($500 or so for a used machine) made it an obvious choice when I began taking my craft seriously. Again, not that it was a machine-of-passage, but that it was an integral part of my own foray into serious pipemaking.
Jeff
P.S. Rad Davis is a jerk.
Very well put, indeed. The reasoning within your post is quite similar to that which I implied, though obviously did not clearly articulate in mine. The advantages offered by a metal lathe and the entry price required for a passable unit ($500 or so for a used machine) made it an obvious choice when I began taking my craft seriously. Again, not that it was a machine-of-passage, but that it was an integral part of my own foray into serious pipemaking.
Jeff
P.S. Rad Davis is a jerk.
Jack,
I’m from upstate NY up in the hills. My father and uncle are auction nuts so I’ll have them helping me keep an eye out for deals now that I have a better idea as to what I’m looking for. Still on the fence as to what I’m going to do all I know is my pipe collection is getting larger because I won’t even give away a pipe where the draught hole and the tobacco chamber don’t line up perfect, so I keep them.
I think I’ll complicate things here a little; it seems that trying to turn stems on a wood lathe may be something that will make me whish I was dead before I get through it. Now I’m still getting stems that have had been drilled and turned for me so that will be my next step. It appears that most would give the nod to a metal lathe in that arena; I know that my PIMO cutter has ruined as many stems on me as were successful, at least at first
I’m from upstate NY up in the hills. My father and uncle are auction nuts so I’ll have them helping me keep an eye out for deals now that I have a better idea as to what I’m looking for. Still on the fence as to what I’m going to do all I know is my pipe collection is getting larger because I won’t even give away a pipe where the draught hole and the tobacco chamber don’t line up perfect, so I keep them.
I think I’ll complicate things here a little; it seems that trying to turn stems on a wood lathe may be something that will make me whish I was dead before I get through it. Now I’m still getting stems that have had been drilled and turned for me so that will be my next step. It appears that most would give the nod to a metal lathe in that arena; I know that my PIMO cutter has ruined as many stems on me as were successful, at least at first
Lots of interesting stuff coming out of this thread. A bunch of it has my head spinning. For some reason, I think a few of us hobbiest-pipe-makers-aspiring-to-do-more have a general wrong idea regarding wood lathes rolling about our heads. It seems as if we look on them on some level as the Holy Grail of tools in regards to pipe making. I know this isn't true, yet I can't get past the idea of owning one for my shop. Lathes... metal and/or wood... are just a whole bunch of fun. I've been making pipes for a while as time, space and motivation allows me and I've yet to hit a wall that only a wood lathe would catapult me over. As Jeff mentioned a few posts ago, he knows of many pipe makers who are lathe-free. Maybe instead of looking at the question as "to lathe or not to lathe", it should be looked at as "what tools will YOU need in your shop to happily and effectively make quality pipes". After all, the tools you use should be ones you're most comfortable with, no?
And I'm still no further ahead in whether or not I should replace my soon-to-be-useless drill press with a new drill press or a wood lathe
And I'm still no further ahead in whether or not I should replace my soon-to-be-useless drill press with a new drill press or a wood lathe
I think the metal vs. wood lathe case has been thoroughly explored. I have a wood lathe and will someday move up to a metal lathe when funds and space allow. But since your limiting factor is funds, wood lathe vs. drill press seems to be the scope of your inquiry. I truly believe you'll get more pipe making mileage out of a small wood lathe. A good drill press will cost you more, take up more space, and in the end, can't do as much as a lathe. Plus you'll still have your drill press (albeit crappy one) to do drill press things.
ROFL. This isn't the first time this issue has been raised on this forum, and this thread is already 4 pages long. There are still dozens of pipemakers out there whose opinion has yet to be heard. This is a topic that will never be exhausted or resolved as long as there is more than one side to the issue.kbadkar wrote:I think the metal vs. wood lathe case has been thoroughly explored.
Thus far all it's helped do is further confuse hazmat & jeeper.
Regards,
Frank.
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Grouch Happens!
People usually get the gods they deserve - Terry Pratchett
Frank.
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Grouch Happens!
People usually get the gods they deserve - Terry Pratchett