How many pipes do you lose to flaws?

[bvartist]

A question stemming from Heinz's on repairing a flaw, and a question posted several weeks ago on ASP. SO I though I'd ask and get everyone's thoughts, and estimates on how many pipes you lose to flaws, how many you rusticate because of flaws, do you leave flaws in?


I just lost my most recent to a flaw going clean through the wall of the bowl (and a mistake on my part that broke off the shank and cut my finger but I won't go into that!!!)

Curious how many everyone else loses, since I seem to lose a lot of pipes to flaws. I had one batch of 6 blocks of Algerian briar that I lost 4 of the six to large flaws. One as a smooth finish with some small pits, and one rusticated.

IF I didn't leave some flaws on pipes with a smooth finish, my estimate on numbers would be I would have made 38 rusticated, 2 smooth, and 10 to 15 unrecoverable. Is that a reasonable percentage? Would be 5% smooth finishes. I will admit some of my earlier ones (and maybe even some more recent ones) I might have been able to sand through the flaws by changing shapes midstream. Some of them I tried but just hit more pits.

Is it ok to leave some small flaws on a smooth pipe? I do on some, making sure that anyone interested in the pipe is aware of the flaws.

Thanks in advance for your input!

David


The non-conformist just trying to fit in!

[KurtHuhn]

It's important to try and keep your options open when shaping a stummel, that way you lose fewer blocks and waste less time. There's no real secret though - you just have to learn and read the wood. Figure out where flaws may be judging by the plateaux skin and the sides of the block. Sometimes sanding a block square is helpful in detecting small flaws. You also need to understand the nature of the flaws, how they travel through the wood, and what directions they are most likely to end up once you find them. Once you nail that down, you'll find that you rarely end up losing a block entirely to flaws. You may have to change the shape of something halfway through, but it's likely you won't lose it entirely.

Another way to avoid losing time and wood is to experiment with drilling after the stummel is shaped. This takes a keen eye, steady hand, and a lot of practice. This isn't for everyone, but it's quite effective in avoiding flaws. However, before embarking on this method, I'd say that understanding the wood (like I mentioned above) will get you farther a lot faster.

[Heinz_D]

Hi David,

I just made 9 pipes and I'm working on #10 and 11. The first try was on a single plateau from Dan pipe nearly without any problems - at the end no visible pit or flaw, but some corrections of the shape. The second single block was also from Dan Pipe and I had two good visible spots which I repaired with sanding dust and superglue - the result after staining dark was acceptable. After this I got a batch of six plateaus from Jeaum Hom. Two blocks got lost in case of big flaws in the middle of the blocks, 1 ended with some little pits, but quiet good and I could make 3 smooth pipes without visible pits or with pits I could hide with contrast staining. The next batch was 4 plateaus from Marco Janzen - all with a lot of pits and/or flaws! One endet with rustication, one was lost and two could be finished again with a few pits hidden by staining the pipes. I emailed with Jaume Hom and asked for better plateaus and got 20 blocks which are looking good after sanding the sides. My #11 is just one of these blocks and after shaping I got flaws again! The example for my question in the other thread is also out of this batch!

So, 14 blocks ended or will end in 11 pipes, 2 rusticated (the example will be rusticated #2), 6 with small pits covered quiet good by staining and 2 with smooth finish without visible pits, but changed shape by grinding pits away - 3 totally lost blocks without a chance to get a pipe out of this wood. The other pipe in progress seems to be good so far...

So 21.4 % were lost, 14.3 % ended rusticated, 50 % have visible, but small pits and 14.3 % could be finished smooth without any visible pits - 57 % of the shapes had to be changed to get acceptable results!

From all the things I heared about briar it seems, that 20 % of lost blocks is a normal quote. Some pipemakers from Germany and Austria told me, that they've only 1 % of absolutly flaw- and pitless blocks...

[JSPipes]

I don't think I've ever had a block without a visible flaw. I've made over 70 pipes by this point.

I lose about 20% as unworkable, and then more than half of those left get rusticated. Soon, some of the rusticated pipes and some more of those that would be smooth will be blasted.

Joel

[bvartist]

There's no real secret though - you just have to learn and read the wood. Figure out where flaws may be judging by the plateaux skin and the sides of the block..... You also need to understand the nature of the flaws, how they travel through the wood, and what directions they are most likely to end up once you find them. Once you nail that down, you'll find that you rarely end up losing a block entirely to flaws. You may have to change the shape of something halfway through, but it's likely you won't lose it entirely.

Thanks Kurt! This most recent one I was pretty sure after cutting off some waste with the bandsaw that I would probably lose it to a flaw, actually a fissure. Getting better at judging flaws if they are visible on the outside of the block before carving. The ones inside usually get me though! I may try drilling after shaping later in my career, right now I value my fingers too much! Don't think my skills are near good enough for that.

I don't think I've ever had a block without a visible flaw. I've made over 70 pipes by this point.

I may have my first one with no flaws! My second attempt today looks promising. Stummel is ready for final sanding and still no visible pits! :thumb: I've done a couple others that were close, but had some barely visible pits I couldn't quite sand through. I'm hopeful on this one!

From all the things I heared about briar it seems, that 20 % of lost blocks is a normal quote.

Thanks Heinz, your numbers are close to mine. Most of mine I left the small pits in and tried to hide them the best I could. I have also had customers say they aren't concerned too much with small pits in briar. I think it all depends on the price of the pipe too!

Thanks, most helpful.

David


The non-conformist just trying to fit in!

[marks]

I have lost one completely due to a flaw that went from the outside to the chamber (absolutely stunning piece of briar except for that one flaw).

I've kept several due to flaws that I was not personally comfortable with letting go to a customer, or the flaws were so deep that I could not remove them with rustication (and I mean really deep in just the wrong places). These pipes are in my collection, my brother's, or a couple of close friends. To date, none of these have burned out or been anything except excellent smokers (they actually make great Christmas or birthday presents).

I've lost a couple to drilling errors as well. Flaws are something I can't completely control, but drilling errors.....Grrrrr!

Regarding leaving flaws on smooth pipes, if they are small pinpoint pits, I may leave them on a smooth pipe if the grain is nice. I will downgrade the pipe and charge less for it. Otherwise, I will rusticate the pipe.

Funny thing, my rusticated pipes move faster than my smooth pipes, so I don't mind making rusticated pipes at all. Saves the customer some $$ and saves me hours of sanding time. Plus, I like creating different rusticated finishes.

In my personal collection, I have some makers where I have nothing but rusticated pipes (Castello, Jacono, Roush for example). Some folks don't like rusticated pipes, but I find them interesting. On the only pipe I ever commissioned (from Paul Tatum) I requested a rusticated pipe because I like his rustication technique so much.

[bvartist]

Funny thing, my rusticated pipes move faster than my smooth pipes, so I don't mind making rusticated pipes at all. Saves the customer some $$ and saves me hours of sanding time. Plus, I like creating different rusticated finishes.

Before I got into making pipes, I disliked rusticated pipes. Always thought the looked "unfinished". However, after making a few, and working out different techniques for rustication I've become to like them too. And now I'll even start a pipe with the intention of rusticating! Something I wouldn't do earlier. And I agree, people seem to like them.

David



The non-conformist just trying to fit in!

[marks]

However, after making a few, and working out different techniques for rustication I've become to like them too. And now I'll even start a pipe with the intention of rusticating! Something I wouldn't do earlier. And I agree, people seem to like them.

David

I also drill some blocks with the intention of rustication as an end result. Some shapes lend themselves very well to rusticated finishes.

Speaking of losing pipes to flaws (or in this case, stupid pipemaker tricks). I roughed out a pipe only to discover that the drill bit wandered or something while drilling and the draft hole was not centered in the mortise. I always look down the mortise to see if I have any pits in there, but I forgot to look for a centered draft hole before I roughed out the pipe. Oh well, another pipe for me. duh.

[bvartist]

(or in this case, stupid pipemaker tricks).

My most recent stupid pipemaker trick! The one I was working on that I lost to the flaw, I also lost to a broken shank. I was roughing out the top of the bowl on the lathe and reached for the on/off switch to check my progress. I forgot it was a long shank pipe and didn't manage to get my hand out of the way. The shank caught me across 3 fingers, split the skin on one knuckle and broke off right at the bowl! OUCH! Hopefully thats one oops I won't repeat anytime soon!

[ToddJohnson]

Hey Guys,

I often hear pipemakers decry some of the prices that certain of us pay for briar. This might be a good place to explain it. I use briar from only one source, and in two and a half years, I have not had to discard a single block. When it all comes down, I'm spending close to $50/block, but one of the things I'm paying for is the cutter's expertise. I often hear people talk about how "all briar is the same," and this is basically true. However, not all briar cutters are the same. Just as a great pipemaker can visualize the internal grain structure of a block, so also, a great briar cutter can visualize the internal grain structure of a briar burl. Many cutters just try to maximize the number of plateaux blocks they can get from a single burl. Really good cutters, however, try to maximize the quality of the blocks they cut from that burl. Consequently, they are more expensive, but it can be worth it.

Now obviously I wouldn't advocate everyone spend $50/block when they're still learning the basics, but at some point, if you look at this as a business, you've got to think about and factor in the cost of wasted labor, etc.

The other thing to consider is your process. If you're drilling your block first, then your hands are often tied, and your married to a particular shape from the outset. If, however, you're finding the best shape in any three dimensions of a particular block, and you're capable of altering that shape, your discard rate is going to be significantly less. Between shaping first, sandblasting, and bamboo, you certainly shouldn't need to discard more than a handful of blocks. That said, I realize that a lot of this is contingent on things like tooling, briar budget, expertise, etc.--things that can't necessarily be altered at will.

Best,

Todd

[bvartist]

Now obviously I wouldn't advocate everyone spend $50/block when they're still learning the basics, but at some point, if you look at this as a business, you've got to think about and factor in the cost of wasted labor, etc.

Absolutely true! Although the price might seem high to start, savings of not losing blocks can add up in the end. Sometimes the "bargains" turn out to be more expensive due to waste. Some is also dependent on how much the maker can charge, and sell the pipes for.

David