Shaping

[shikano53]

I'm really having difficulty with the shaping of the pipes I attempt. It's quite discouraging. I can get the internals, drilling just bang on but getting the shape correct is still eluding me. It's getting better mind you but when I am finished and look at the finished product I sigh and put it in my shop drawer.
I guess it is a stage that everyone???? goes through. Sigh...

[LatakiaLover]

Have a model/example pipe at hand---literally inches away within easy reach---and shape the block you are working on to match it. Compare as often as necessary to stay on track.

Forget "inspired by" or "derived from" shapes. Make the new pipe as identical to the model/example as you physically can by any means necessary.

Do not progress to shaping "on the fly" until you can do the matching exercise dead-on every time and it is no longer challenging.

You MUST learn your tools and how to control both them and your hands FIRST, you see. If you don't, you'll forever be stuck wondering, "Why does nothing turn out the way I want? The way I see it in my head?"

[shikano53]

Thanks for the advice. I will do that. I told someone once that I had made a 'billiard'. That individual said good; Now make five more.
I will try and replicate what I have.

[UnderShade]

I might add, take that example pipe you’re trying to replicate, and feel it with your fingers. Close your eyes, and feel it. Every curve and angle. Memorize it, then compare it to what you have made. I did this with a Savinelli 601 billiard, and it helped greatly with the first three pipes I made. Just my experience. Others with more might have a better way.

[RickB]

Thanks for the advice. I will do that. I told someone once that I had made a 'billiard'. That individual said good; Now make five more.
I will try and replicate what I have.

That, but like 50 or 100

[shikano53]

Rick: 50 or 100 - I'd be living in a card board box under a bridge because my wife would have kicked me out.
Lots of card board boxes for all my equipment.

[RickB]

Rick: 50 or 100 - I'd be living in a card board box under a bridge because my wife would have kicked me out.
Lots of card board boxes for all my equipment.

Small Greek ebauchons and Japanese ebonite are your friend. It may not take 50 but there was a huge degree of improvement between my 5th and 10th.

[Sasquatch]

I made about 30 billiards before I felt like I really had it under control at all, and even then I probably still didn't. LL's idea of learning your tools and hands (and eyes) is bang on. I had a guy in my shop, flew 2000 miles to come and hang out and learn to make pipes. I handed him a file and he had no idea what to do with it, how to hold it, how to move it. "Ahh. Okay." For me, this stuff has been happening since I was 15. Or 5. I dunno. Tools DO something, they are made for some particular task, so find out what that is and choose the right one. Rinse and repeat unfortunately.

[n80]

Something I learned here (from George or somebody) that has helped me is to do the basic shaping and then stop and put it away for a day or two. What I was doing was getting to that stage and then rushing forward to get it done to see the finished product. That caused me to miss stuff that should have been obvious.

I'm not saying my shaping is perfect, far from it, I'm too new at this yet, but the stop and wait thing has made a really big difference toward improving.

After waiting I re-examine from all angles, even using a mirror. Then I get a pencil out and crosshatch areas that need to be revised. I do the revision and put it away for a while if need be.

You might be doing this already, but for other beginners it is great advice and marked a big step forward for me.

Also agree about learning your tools. That has been another big learning curve. I've got fairly extensive experience with a lot of tools but never at this level of precision and this small a scale. (Not have a lathe has also forced me to get creative with the tools I have.)

[shikano53]

Thank you all for the input. I'll keep on keeping on. I like the idea of training your hands and eyes. I always use a pencil to outline and then as I'm working try to 'see'. I have numerous pictures that I have examples of that I use. They aren't 3D of course but they help. The two billiards I actually own I keep out in the shop all the time. One is a Dunhill size 3 the other is a Sasieni.
I'll post pics of each as they come along.
Thanks again.

[sandahlpipe]

Getting the shape spot on is tough. That’s because it really isn’t the shape in your hands, but the shape in your mind’s eye that you’re working on.


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[shikano53]

yeah, excellent point sandahlpipe.
I have to relate a humorous side-note here. I couldn't find the post I'm referring to but anyway it doesn't really matter. Back in 2016 or 17 I posted a few pics of a billiard I had made as a copy of my Dunhill group 3 Bruyere. I did my very best at that time to copy it in every detail. See the picture below of the Dunhill I copied. What I found funny in the context of the above comments was that I did just as LL mentioned. Copy it in every detail. Well I did that faithfully down to the bump on the bottom of the bowl on the Dunhill. The Dunhill ain't flat on the bottom but I copied it accordingly.
Someone commented in that post that the bottom MUST BE FLAT!!! I responded and said but the Dunhill isn't flat on the bottom. That person came back and said, You ain't Alfred Dunhill. He can get away with it: you can't. Now that cracks me up!

[LatakiaLover]

Whether the pipe being used as a model is a good specimen or not makes no difference. Whoever told you that corrections/improvements should be made to the copy didn't understand the point of the exercise.

Forums are great because anyone who wants to participate, can.

Forums sometimes suck for the same reason.

[shikano53]

Yup!

[Sasquatch]

So I mean, let's go full fucking Yoda here (1/2 a bottle of Masi in and a bowl of Kensington burning).

As important as copying something, or more important (eventually more important for sure, but you have to start somewhere) is the training of the eye to see when things are right. So let's talk about that awful Dunhill, Dunhill it may be, and a much better one.




I don't think this is a perfect billiard, but it's vastly sharper than the one posted above.

Bowl shape is better - why?

Proportions - discuss the difference in presentation here?

Problems: Why isn't this one "perfect"? What could be better?

[Sasquatch]

And contrast that further with a billiard I knocked out a year or two ago (and honestly I don't know when or why, I sell a LOT of these).



Better then the Dunhill in some ways? Worse in some ways? What's the overall feel here?

Again, answering "what's the miniscule difference I'm seeing here" goes a long way to helping improve - some of this stuff is right/wrong, some of it is "style" (and that's a fascinating blurring right at that borderline too).

[Sir_Saartan]

I'm new here and new to pipe making. I've read this carefully, and Maddis, Sasquatch and several
others have told me what you're suggesting here: make a bunch of billiards. maybe try a different
design every once in a while, just to see if your skills are already transferable and to mix it up a bit,
but stick to the billiard until you nail it.

I love billiards, and smoke those almost exclusively so that's not really a problem on my part.

There's one suggestion that I was told that I would like you to say how you feel about it:

make several pipes of the same shape at once.

I think the idea is that - since repetition is what makes you better - that maybe
repeating the same steps on different pipes before moving on will increase the
learning curve.

I haven't had lots of problems with the drilling, but I did mess up 2 when I wasn't really paying
attention enough. I imagine drilling 5 pipes in a row I might not repeat the same mistake I
just made.

What I'm not sure about is the less obvious mistakes: sometimes, I think I've pretty much
nailed something I had problems with before, only to slide one of my rough rasps across the bottom
maybe twice too much and it ended up being just slightly too thin. Sometimes, that's obvious, but many times
at least to me it is not until I finish correcting other parts of the pipe, and then I realize I now don't have enough
wood left to shape the bottom.

I'd appreciate your thoughts on that:
- should I make one pipe at a time?
- should I make several pipes at once.

If you believe the second choice is the way to go, what's the "waiting point"?
meaning in what steps should I make them?
Drilling is an obvious one,
I believe the second step would be after shaping on the lathe.

but then?

I must add that I don't own a bandsaw yet, so usually I use the belt sander to sand off what most of
you would simply cut.

I'd also like to know: Since I'm just a hobby pipe maker - should I keep my questions as short as
possible in order not to waste your time? Many times I end up writing long posts, trying to cover as much
as possible. If it's preferred I change that here, I certainly will try to remember that.

[seamonster]

From what place I imagine you are at in the process, I would think making one pipe at a time is more beneficial (also, since your other post about making war clubs....). Especially if you are turning pipes. You might turn and drill 5 stummels, but then once you fit and shape a stem, and remove the block gripped by the lathe jaws, you realize that your proportions are all off.... now you have 5 stummels with the same mistake. But if you turn and drill one, and finish it, you'll learn some things, you can apply those things to the next one. You might have to make some changes earlier in the process that you don't realize until later in the process. As you get more pipes under your belt, you'll be able to "see in the future" a bit, so to speak, and be able to forsee issues that might arise, and correct for them before you get there.

[Sir_Saartan]

Actually the other thread was by someone else. I just had questions that fit what was said before.

That being said: your answer does help. I was thinking in the same direction.