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 Post subject: my third pipe complete
PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 5:35 pm 
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Here's a few pics of my third effort. thr second is a tractor pipe, since the shank broke in the lathe. This I call the iron horse stack pipe, since it resembles the stack on the mid 19th century locomotives. I do like stacks deep enough so that the czech tool scraper bottoms out in the bowl. this one is 7 inches long, 3 high, 1 3/4 at widest point. Bowl is 2 3/4 deep, 3/4 dia. conical at bottom. if you look closely , i have an error at the shank junction with the adornment ring, bit of a rounding of the shank at the end.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 8:07 pm 
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How thick is your chamber wall on the bottom 1/2 of the bowl?
DocAitch

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 8:26 pm 
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DocAitch wrote:
How thick is your chamber wall on the bottom 1/2 of the bowl?
DocAitch


3/16 to 1/4


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:36 am 
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I like the idea of the shape. With some refining, it will work.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:22 pm 
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Charl: now dammit, you left that hanging :| what refinements would you suggest?


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 4:10 pm 
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slowroll wrote:
Charl: now dammit, you left that hanging :| what refinements would you suggest?


Refinements would be stuff like keeping your lines crisp and straight. You can see some bulging on the shank, and the stem is kind of "duck billed" It could be the lighting, but the bowl seems over buffed near the rings. This comes with practice.

It is a cool idea, and should be repeated. Nice 3rd pipe!

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:07 pm 
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Kamkiel, thanks for your input and comments. Appreciate your overall positive on the shape. Let me address each of those inputs in turn. The buffing is indeed uniform, those are just highlights from the flash angle. I dont' think there any bulges, per se, in the shank, I believe what your're seeing is the camera angle and some shadow. There is however I will admit, a slight upwards unevenness ( a bit of concavity) in the bottom shank line near the bowl. That comes no doubt from rolling the stummel to much on the french wheel when rounding the bowl bottom. Regarding the duck bill on the stem, I guess that's considered declasse in todays design ethic? I noticed Sas pointed that out on another person's pipe somewhere. I actually like it for a number of reasons. I think it gives a sleeker look rather than a continuous taper angle to the button, and I like the mouth feel of it, since it gives a thinner bit area when clenching. In my mind, I always thought the continuous taper looked clunky. Am I being heretical? And BTW, it sure ain't easier to do a duck bill, got to be pretty careful to make a clean slope :fencing:


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 11:34 pm 
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You'd be wise to listen to kamkiel. He speaks the truth. Straight lines are difficult. Use a straight edge as your guide. Until you can conquer the straight line, you will have difficulty conquering a good curve.

I, at least, know these things because I've been where you are. Disbelieving a critique starting out is the surest way to hinder your own progress.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 11:40 pm 
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IAWS

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:12 am 
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sandahlpipe wrote:
You'd be wise to listen to kamkiel. He speaks the truth. Straight lines are difficult. Use a straight edge as your guide. Until you can conquer the straight line, you will have difficulty conquering a good curve.

I, at least, know these things because I've been where you are. Disbelieving a critique starting out is the surest way to hinder your own progress.


Where did I say I disbelieved the critique? You seem to have rather harsh assessment of my attitude. Please assume I'm engaging in discussion, not disbelief. If I didn't welcome honest critique I wouldn't have asked for it by posting here. I agreed there is a small concavity in the bottom line, and the shank mortise end is not as sharp as it should be, but that the rest of the shank passes the straight edge test, so some of the pic visual is camera focal length and lighting/shadow. With all due deference to all you experienced pipe makers, I do know how to use a straight edge; I've been a machinist for quite a while.
Cheers,


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 2:20 am 
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Sorry, slowroll! Was in a rush and didn't explain better.
Exactly what kamkiel et al said. Plus ring to be flatter, get rid of toolmarks and scratches, bowl/shank sharper etc.
Basically just neaten it up.
The straight line thing? Something is off and the human eye can see the smallest deviation. One thing to remember: it's not just about having straight lines, it's about having straight lines in the right place.
Is the stem a premold?

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 8:51 am 
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I can't tell if it's the shank or the background fabric tricking my eye - but here's what I'm seeing that looks like some wavering in that line:

Image

Image

And if it seems like everyone's being super picky sticklers, that's kind of the point - because it helps us improve more than the friends and family members who'll blow sunshine up your ass. :lol:

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 8:59 am 
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Debating the critique won't really help you progress. Whether you disbelieve it or not is less the point than whether you accept it. In my opinion, there's nothing kamkiel said that's even a debatable point. If I were you, I'd go back and take another look at the pipe with these critiques in mind. See if you can see what they're talking about. If you're going to push back, let that be with questions on technique.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 12:29 pm 
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Jeremiah, I'm discussing, not debating. I'm merely trying to ensure that we are all are seeing and discussing the same things. RickB-- thanks for taking the time to outline what you see. In actually fondling the pipe I don't see any waver in the side view, but your line across the bottom of the shnk does show the concavity that I agree is there. I wasn't deft enough with the french wheel in shaping the bottom bowl/shank transition. Charl, thanks for clarifying. Re the ring--do you mean the outer radius should be smaller to bring it closer to the shank/stem radius? And regarding the bowl/shank transition, do you mean the transition radius should be less--a sharper gradient?

And finally, re the stem shape, that's an esthetic issue I would like to clarify. Why is it considered de riguer to have a constant taper angle all the way to the button, rathr than a bit of duck bill? I'm not averse to detail criticism, but I do always ask the why of something. Believe me, I understand the need for detail. I periodically teach people how to fly advanced manuevers, and details keep one alive in an airplane. But I always get "why?" questions, so I explain the reasons that might be obscure to the uninitiated.

Thanks for taking the time all.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 4:07 pm 
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IAWS

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 5:14 pm 
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The duckbill is what you get when you sand a pipe stem the first time, and it's the shape a lot of pre-made blanks are. So it simply rings amateur. Look at a Dunhill billiard. No duckbill. Hard, tight lines. Much much more difficult to do, because only one set of lines is "right". The duckbill.. hell anything goes. Just, none of it is very nice.

The idea that what a guy might make on his 1st, 3rd, 10th pipe etc is not very different from what a kid in a grade 8 shop class might do in terms of shaping, stem angles etc is kind of critical. It takes a while to NOT do that stuff, to learn the 500 little details that separate "Yay I made this so it must be awesome" from "I made this and I know exactly what I'm doing, therefore I made it awesome"

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 7:17 pm 
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Sas, thanks for input. I see where you're coming from, but jeez, I spent a lot of time graduating that out because I like the way it feels. Now I find out I fuck ed up :yield: So all that sanding and it's kids school, oh well. :banghead:


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 7:43 pm 
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It's not that it's fucked up, you could make duck-billed pipes and sell them every day for the rest of your life. Savinelli does.

But the trained eye sees a pipe like that and can point to literally 50 things that would be better done some other way, and when you start to apply those things, what happens is people want to buy the pipes, and the more you are able to apply, the more money you will be offered. Beauty may or may not be in the eye of the beholder (it might be much more fundamentally mathematical than that), but pipe buyers, in the big leagues... they know what they are looking at. They know the cheats, they know the silver bands you can buy on eBay. And that shit doesn't cut it at some level. At other levels, hey, you want the bamboo/black palm/walrus tusk adornment (usually all in one!) on a green pipe with purple stripes? Have at it.

This board is geared to one thing - better pipes in the Danish (and now American) tradition. That doesn't mean a guy can't be creative, and it doesn't mean you can't make whatever you want - but there's a school here, a method of thought, more or less, about aesthetics, that's gonna get applied.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 7:46 pm 
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I showed this picture set elsewhere - this pipe here...

Image

is technically and artistically a better pipe than this here:

Image

And every experienced maker here would tell you exactly the same things about each.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 8:14 pm 
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Sas, thanks for that detailed explanation. I apprehend it took some effort. The major problem for guys like me is of what you speak is rather subtle and clear to mostly the cognoscenti. For example , the 2 pipes above, the issues to me are only that the stem line on the first pipe is more refined, as is the stem/shank transition curve. To me the rest is subjective style (I don't particularly Care for either one :? ). I wish you had the time to tell me what 50 things could be different on the pipe I showed; that would be instructive, albeit ponderous for you. I didn't think there were 50 things to consider in total, let alone do differently. :shock: BTW, I'm glad to hear about tending toward Danish style, I do like many of the old Danish pipe styles (except for a lot of the freehands)
Cheers.


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