Achieving round stummels without a lathe

For discussion of the drilling and shaping of the stummel.
The Smoking Yeti
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Re: Achieving round stummels without a lathe

Post by The Smoking Yeti »

Tbh, the most applicable skill you can learn without a lathe is how to do it with a compass and some rasps/sandpaper. When you get a lathe, you can speed up the process. Until then, just learn to use your eye- that skill is indispensable regardless of your tooling.
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W.Pastuch
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Re: Achieving round stummels without a lathe

Post by W.Pastuch »

deBeaupre wrote:
That topic is a big one and it goes way back in time! I'm sure early hominids were debating the effectiveness of smashing things with there fists versus using a sharp rock. It seems that artisans would rather smash with there fists. Fist smashing results in a product of higher intrinsic value.

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Matt
Nope, this is different.
A cutter that repeatably creates a set bowl profile for you, instead of you making that curve the way you want it, is a step past the blurred line.
That's a tool for bigger production and it's a classical one- the very first briar pipe manufacturers in St.Claude and Cogolin and all the others after that used exactly that type of cutter, in hundreds of shapes, to automatically recreate millions of pipes a year. If that's what you want to to, it's the way to go :wink:
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Re: Achieving round stummels without a lathe

Post by The Smoking Yeti »

deBeaupre wrote:
That topic is a big one and it goes way back in time! I'm sure early hominids were debating the effectiveness of smashing things with there fists versus using a sharp rock. It seems that artisans would rather smash with there fists. Fist smashing results in a product of higher intrinsic value.

Cheers
Matt
My first take- WTF?!

Seriously though, that's a really silly thing to say. Especially if you've met some of the top-tier artisans and spoken with them at any length about their craft. When people smash with fists- they don't get high precision- they get bar fights. Mass production setups are great for one thing... mass production. Last I checked none of us are starting a pipe factory.

If you want to some day open a pipe factory, you should probably start by learning how shaping really high end pipes works- it'll help you a ton even if you're churning out $50-$100 pipes.

But seriously... fist smash?!

WTF!

Yeti
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deBeaupre
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Re: Achieving round stummels without a lathe

Post by deBeaupre »

The Smoking Yeti wrote:
My first take- WTF?!

Seriously though, that's a really silly thing to say. Especially if you've met some of the top-tier artisans and spoken with them at any length about their craft. When people smash with fists- they don't get high precision- they get bar fights. Mass production setups are great for one thing... mass production. Last I checked none of us are starting a pipe factory.

If you want to some day open a pipe factory, you should probably start by learning how shaping really high end pipes works- it'll help you a ton even if you're churning out $50-$100 pipes.

But seriously... fist smash?!

WTF!

Yeti
Ok, I was trying to illicit that response. I would personally be honored to be called a fist smasher! Fist smashing doesn't mean making shit pipes it just means making the pipes in a hands on way, I'm talking about process. Clearly my "fist smashing" analogy breaks down when comparing it to making-something-by-hand. All analogies break down at some point. I myself am a fist-smasher wannabe rock-smasher. IMO, it doesn't matter which process you choose to subtract material from a block of briar because at the end of it you have a pipe. That's all, just a pipe. In NO way do I mean to diminish the years of hard work that goes into making pipes by "hand" - if that was what you took from my statement then I completely understand your response. Also, If I didn't appreciate hand-made or hand-crafted goods then I probably wouldn't be making stuff with my hands. My point is that if I can design a jig to do the redundant work for me - I must do it. I must smash with a rock! Besides I was thinking of making something that quickly gets rid of the block shape found in my last picture. Not to finish profile but at least round it enough to quickly file and sand my way to the finished profile (much like what keilwerth cleverly pointed out). Quick and fast but not too a repeatable finish. I'm in control of the design and I can change it at will. I want to design my shop like a micro-pipefactory but still maintain the handcraft status.

Matt
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Re: Achieving round stummels without a lathe

Post by The Smoking Yeti »

That makes more sense- it sounded a lot like you were suggesting that "slower" methods, like using a shaping disc and shaping by eye was silly compared to a jig setup. I think I see what you're saying now though. My biggest point, is that at some point you're going to want a lathe- at that point it makes sense to start cutting bowl profiles using the lathe and cutting tools.

Until then I'm suggesting you'll learn a lot more about good pipe shaping by doing it slower by hand- it'll help you a ton down the road developing those hand-eye skills.

Cheers!

Yeti
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PremalChheda
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Re: Achieving round stummels without a lathe

Post by PremalChheda »

The Smoking Yeti wrote:That makes more sense- it sounded a lot like you were suggesting that "slower" methods, like using a shaping disc and shaping by eye was silly compared to a jig setup. I think I see what you're saying now though. My biggest point, is that at some point you're going to want a lathe- at that point it makes sense to start cutting bowl profiles using the lathe and cutting tools.

Until then I'm suggesting you'll learn a lot more about good pipe shaping by doing it slower by hand- it'll help you a ton down the road developing those hand-eye skills.

Cheers!

Yeti
IAWY

Practice with limited tools will give you more understanding of making good pipes no matter the price range. Once that is learned and perfected, then Need will come into effect more than Want for equipment upgrades for efficiency. You will also spend a lot less money if you first learn with limited tools and research before realizing down the road that you did not need that $10,000.00 piece of equipment or $10,000 worth of cutting tools, or the hundreds of hours spent on trying to do the new thing when the old way works very well etc..

I am planning a project soon to make one of my pipes up to the standards I have with very limited tools. I will not even be using a lathe or drill press. The entire process will be filmed. Here is the list of tools to give you an idea:

Rotary tool with bits: $250.00
Power Drill: $50.00
Files & Coping Saw: $60.00
Sandpaper, shellac, oil, dye: $50.00
Motor, Sanding Discs, & Buffing supplies: $100
Drill Bits, Reamers, and Misc. custom made tools: $60.00
Good shop vac: $100.00
Good Bench Vise: $40.00
Total Cost: $710.00

I could even take the rotary tool out to make the total only $460.00.

I expect it to take about 15 to 20 hours for a pipe that would usually take me 6 to 10 hours.
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d.huber
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Re: Achieving round stummels without a lathe

Post by d.huber »

PremalChheda wrote:Rotary tool with bits: $250.00
Power Drill: $50.00
Files & Coping Saw: $60.00
Sandpaper, shellac, oil, dye: $50.00
Motor, Sanding Discs, & Buffing supplies: $100
Drill Bits, Reamers, and Misc. custom made tools: $60.00
Good shop vac: $100.00
Good Bench Vise: $40.00
Total Cost: $710.00

I could even take the rotary tool out to make the total only $460.00.

I expect it to take about 15 to 20 hours for a pipe that would usually take me 6 to 10 hours.
I look forward to seeing this. Looking at this list, I suspect you could do it with even less. Facing the shank and stem or countersinking should be interesting. :)
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Re: Achieving round stummels without a lathe

Post by The Smoking Yeti »

You can easily scratch the rotary tool. As far as countersinking the mortise, you can always just use some sandpaper and dedication.
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Tyler
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Re: Achieving round stummels without a lathe

Post by Tyler »

UberHuberMan wrote:
PremalChheda wrote:Rotary tool with bits: $250.00
Power Drill: $50.00
Files & Coping Saw: $60.00
Sandpaper, shellac, oil, dye: $50.00
Motor, Sanding Discs, & Buffing supplies: $100
Drill Bits, Reamers, and Misc. custom made tools: $60.00
Good shop vac: $100.00
Good Bench Vise: $40.00
Total Cost: $710.00

I could even take the rotary tool out to make the total only $460.00.

I expect it to take about 15 to 20 hours for a pipe that would usually take me 6 to 10 hours.
I look forward to seeing this. Looking at this list, I suspect you could do it with even less. Facing the shank and stem or countersinking should be interesting. :)
Facing with those tools is not as hard as you might think.
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Re: Achieving round stummels without a lathe

Post by The Smoking Yeti »

Tyler wrote:
UberHuberMan wrote:
PremalChheda wrote:Rotary tool with bits: $250.00
Power Drill: $50.00
Files & Coping Saw: $60.00
Sandpaper, shellac, oil, dye: $50.00
Motor, Sanding Discs, & Buffing supplies: $100
Drill Bits, Reamers, and Misc. custom made tools: $60.00
Good shop vac: $100.00
Good Bench Vise: $40.00
Total Cost: $710.00

I could even take the rotary tool out to make the total only $460.00.

I expect it to take about 15 to 20 hours for a pipe that would usually take me 6 to 10 hours.
I look forward to seeing this. Looking at this list, I suspect you could do it with even less. Facing the shank and stem or countersinking should be interesting. :)
Facing with those tools is not as hard as you might think.
I've heard of using a handmade tool which fits tightly into the mortise and has sandpaper flush-fit to sand the mortise face? (I just noticed he didn't list a drill press)
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http://yetipipe.tumblr.com/
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d.huber
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Re: Achieving round stummels without a lathe

Post by d.huber »

The Smoking Yeti wrote:I've heard of using a handmade tool which fits tightly into the mortise and has sandpaper flush-fit to sand the mortise face? (I just noticed he didn't list a drill press)
The trick that I have yet to learn is how to give that tool a flush fit face without a lathe or drill press.
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Tyler
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Re: Achieving round stummels without a lathe

Post by Tyler »

UberHuberMan wrote:
The Smoking Yeti wrote:I've heard of using a handmade tool which fits tightly into the mortise and has sandpaper flush-fit to sand the mortise face? (I just noticed he didn't list a drill press)
The trick that I have yet to learn is how to give that tool a flush fit face without a lathe or drill press.
You buy it.
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Sasquatch
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Re: Achieving round stummels without a lathe

Post by Sasquatch »

I would trade a rotary tool and power drill out for a drill press.
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d.huber
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Re: Achieving round stummels without a lathe

Post by d.huber »

Tyler wrote:
UberHuberMan wrote:
The Smoking Yeti wrote:I've heard of using a handmade tool which fits tightly into the mortise and has sandpaper flush-fit to sand the mortise face? (I just noticed he didn't list a drill press)
The trick that I have yet to learn is how to give that tool a flush fit face without a lathe or drill press.
You buy it.
Pfft. Waaaaay too easy. We're talking hand-made, here Tyler. Seriously, where are your standards? :P
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d.huber
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Re: Achieving round stummels without a lathe

Post by d.huber »

UberHuberMan wrote:
The Smoking Yeti wrote:I've heard of using a handmade tool which fits tightly into the mortise and has sandpaper flush-fit to sand the mortise face? (I just noticed he didn't list a drill press)
The trick that I have yet to learn is how to give that tool a flush fit face without a lathe or drill press.
Also, comments like this are a great example of my mouth getting ahead of my brain.
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Re: Achieving round stummels without a lathe

Post by Literaryworkshop »

Back to the OP for a moment. I don't have a lathe, either. As was said above, your best bet for making round objects without a lathe is to lay out the shape with a compass and cut to the line. In concept, it's easy. In practice, it's difficult.

I find it easiest if I shape an octagon first, going almost down to your layout lines.

I don't have a great picture, but this one will do:

Image

The stummel is a very rough octagon, eyeballed to shape. From here, I flatten each of the eight corners down to my layout line to get a symmetrical, 16-sided shape. At that point, I usually go around the profile with a file to knock off the 16 corners, but you could probably go straight to sandpaper from there, too.

If you're going right from a saw to files, I HIGHLY recommend getting a couple decent rasps for quick stock removal. They make the hand-shaping process go so much more quickly. I really like the Czech-made rasps from Lee Valley.
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PremalChheda
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Re: Achieving round stummels without a lathe

Post by PremalChheda »

Sasquatch wrote:I would trade a rotary tool and power drill out for a drill press.
That would be ideal, but I do not currently have a drill press. I think I may take the rotary tool out on the first attempt or change the rotary tool and hand drill for a drill press with milling vice. Good idea Sas, Thanks!
Last edited by PremalChheda on Mon Dec 23, 2013 12:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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PremalChheda
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Re: Achieving round stummels without a lathe

Post by PremalChheda »

UberHuberMan wrote:
The Smoking Yeti wrote:I've heard of using a handmade tool which fits tightly into the mortise and has sandpaper flush-fit to sand the mortise face? (I just noticed he didn't list a drill press)
The trick that I have yet to learn is how to give that tool a flush fit face without a lathe or drill press.
Or just make a taper fit on the tenon. No need to face at all then.
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Re: Achieving round stummels without a lathe

Post by LatakiaLover »

Sounds like you guys are getting into repair territory, now. :lol:
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Re: Achieving round stummels without a lathe

Post by The Smoking Yeti »

LatakiaLover wrote:Sounds like you guys are getting into repair territory, now. :lol:
I think the words "repair" and "ghetto" can be used interchangeably in this sentence.
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