Stain off the stummel looking for the cause.

[Briarfox]

Just wanted a few opinions. I made a set of pipes for my wedding party about a year and a half ago. I made a Churchwarden freehand for the pastor. He decided to break the pipe in last night. After holding the pipe for a few the stain bled onto his hand.

Notes:

I use an alcohol based stain

I set the stain with shellac

This has only happened on one of my pipes.

He also lives in florida and my guess is the humidity had something to do with it.

The stain bled but the finish remained perfect and I could not see any areas where it was lighter.

It was earlier in my pipe making so I may have stained after sanding to 800 which I no longer do. I start staining at 320.

Your thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

[KurtHuhn]

I have never received reports of this - though I have heard of others who have had this problem.

All I can tell you is that I never apply stain after 500 grit. And most of the time, never after 360. My goal is never to make an opaque and uniform stain color, only to highlight the grain. Also, if you stain after 500 or 600, the stain will generally float on the surface and not sink into the wood. Even setting with shellac after that grit will not truly set the stain, and will leave it open to the environment.

[prosmoking]

I also use the alcohol based stain. After staining, and letting it sit for a while, I wipe the whole thing down thoroughly with alcohol to remove any excess stain. So far I have not had a problem, but I live where it is very low humidity. While smoking my pipes, my hands (I have sweaty hands) take the wax and spit shine off, but the stain has not shown up on my fingers yet.
My guess, the excess stain is getting pulled up into the spit shine. And yes, the spit shine does come off. It is not a durable finish.

[m.c.]

If it's sanded to higher grit before staining, you may try wiping the stummel with alcohol and let dry before staining. Alcohol roughens up the surface a bit and takes away grease. After staining, particularly heavy staining, I wipe the stummel with a cloth that has been wetted and wrung. Both wringing and wiping are done aggressively. It helps, though I'm not sure whether this totally eliminates the problem.

[pennsyscot]

I have never received reports of this - though I have heard of others who have had this problem.

All I can tell you is that I never apply stain after 500 grit. And most of the time, never after 360. My goal is never to make an opaque and uniform stain color, only to highlight the grain. Also, if you stain after 500 or 600, the stain will generally float on the surface and not sink into the wood. Even setting with shellac after that grit will not truly set the stain, and will leave it open to the environment.

Kurt, what grit do you stop sanding at. I thought the last step in finishing was applying stain. Should I be sanding with very fine grits?
thanks

[KurtHuhn]

Kurt, what grit do you stop sanding at. I thought the last step in finishing was applying stain. Should I be sanding with very fine grits?

No, the last step in finishing should be buffing with a very soft wheel. My process goes like such:
- rough shape
- soak with stain (burn off the alcohol with flame)
- sand with 180
- stain (burn off the alcohol with flame)
- sand with 360
- stain (let the stain mostly dry on its own and wipe off with a rag)
- sand with 500
- repeat above two steps if needed
- buff with tripoli
- buff with white diamond
- apply carnuba
- final buff with soft flannel

There are a couple trade secrets in there that I would be happy to show visitors to my shop, but I typically don't publish on the open internet. They are not necessary for finishing a pipe, but are things I do since I feel they work well. If you follow the above, you should be able to produce a very good, shiny, and uniform finish with little effort.

[jogilli]

Kurt

Quick question on technique.. I apply caranuba buff and then white polish. You do it the other way...

I did it white polish first then caranuba second and THINK i'm getting a higher shine with my current process...

I'll give your process another shot just for the sake of it to compare, as what I think might be shiny is really dull if done the other way around.

Tks
James

[pennsyscot]

Do you apply stain after the 500 grit sanding?

[NathanA]

Kurt,
I noticed you stop at 500. I have read some other posts that talk about sanding all the way up to 2500. When I have sanded above 500 it feels like I am getting nowhere. Is there any need for going higher? (Anyone can chime in, the question is not directed solely at Kurt.)

[KurtHuhn]

Quick question on technique.. I apply caranuba buff and then white polish. You do it the other way...

I did it white polish first then caranuba second and THINK i'm getting a higher shine with my current process...

I'll give your process another shot just for the sake of it to compare, as what I think might be shiny is really dull if done the other way around.

That is... odd. I'm not sure I understand how you got it more shiny by buffing with white compound last. The wax is the shiny and smooth part, and gets laid down on the surface similar to how you would wax a car to make it shiny. It seems to me that you'd be removing the wax with the white compound, and making the surface more dull. Is it possible you're laying down a whole lot of carnuba all at once and it's getting gummed up and stuff? If that's the case, try a lighter touch, and less carnuba on the wheel. Less is more when it comes to canuba wax.

Do you apply stain after the 500 grit sanding?

Not typically. It won't really sink in to the wood after that grit.

I noticed you stop at 500. I have read some other posts that talk about sanding all the way up to 2500. When I have sanded above 500 it feels like I am getting nowhere. Is there any need for going higher? (Anyone can chime in, the question is not directed solely at Kurt.)

In the past I would sand to a much higher grit, but I no longer do so. If you properly sand to 500 (I use Abralon pads) going higher is simply a waste of time. Part of the reason for staining between grits is to ensure that I actually do properly sand the wood. I don't want to remove ALL the stain, but I want it there so that I can see if there are any scratches left over from the previous grit.

Note that I'm not saying that this is the way *everyone* should do this - but this is the process that I've used with excellent results.

[Sasquatch]

I think it was Todd J who said more or less that there's very little point in sanding to 10000 grit if you are then going to go back to a brown tripoli at 800 grit. Sanding WELL at 5 or 600, having a scratch free stummel, is way more important than taking things to the ultra fine.

[RadDavis]

Everyone has differing processes.

I do no staining at all until after I've sanded to 600 grit. Then I apply stain, wipe it off with alcohol, buff and wax.

Whatever the process, carnauba should be the last application of anything. A lot of makers buff with a clean flannel after applying carnauba, but I don't have that extra wheel.

Rad

[LexKY_Pipe]

I sand to 600. Then stain. I let the stain set at least over night. Have never had a bleed problem.

[Charl]

Sanding above 600 grit is a waste of time. If you worked through the lower grits (especially your 1st) well, you will end up with a shiny pipe.

[Briarfox]

I always wipe the pipe down with alcohol to even the stain out. And I usually stop staining at 400. It's just odd that one out of 6 pipes had the stain run and only after being in a humid climate for a 1 and a half without being smoked.

It is possible that I stained at 800 only. It was earlier in my pipe making.

[Nick]

Was it red stain?

[jogilli]

That is... odd. I'm not sure I understand how you got it more shiny by buffing with white compound last. The wax is the shiny and smooth part, and gets laid down on the surface similar to how you would wax a car to make it shiny. It seems to me that you'd be removing the wax with the white compound, and making the surface more dull. Is it possible you're laying down a whole lot of carnuba all at once and it's getting gummed up and stuff? If that's the case, try a lighter touch, and less carnuba on the wheel. Less is more when it comes to canuba wax..

Well I finally got around to trying the two out and I got similar results.. but when I applied less wax the method for white compound and then wax came out significantly better. I was simply applying too much wax and removing it w/the white compound... Thanks for the insight


James

[wdteipen]

I wonder if there's something in your pastors chemistry that would have caused it. I've never had any of my pipes bleed and I rarely stain before 400 grit and often apply more stain after 600 grit. I also use aniline dyes.

I did have a Stanwell Red that bled horribly but I'm not sure what the cause was.

[Dixie_piper]

The mentioning of your pastors chemistry makes sense; I've got a friend who has some off the wall condition that makes his sweat extremely acidic, to the point that he won't even sit in a chair with wooden arm rests. I wish I could recall what that condition is called, I know he's diabetic and a cancer survivor but not sure if that's related.
But if he rests his arm on finished wood it will mar the finish over time.

[ToddJohnson]

This will happen if you buff the pipe first and then apply stain (without sanding in between). It may look fine, but as soon as someone's hand sweats on it, the stain will come off.

Rad's method is great for an even, pretty finish on most shapes. If you're going for higher contrast, however, or if you're doing something that is nearly impossible to buff the stain off of uniformly--like a full bent or something very intricately carved--you might want to try this:

1. Sand to 220 on the wheel.
2. Wet the pipe. If there are still scratches, return to step 1 and repeat. If there are no scratches move on to step 3.
3. Sand with 400 on the wheel. This wheel should be soft and leave few to no facets.
4. After sanding on the wheel with 400, sand by hand with a worn out piece of 400 (or you could use 500).
5. Apply the dark stain until it's basically opaque.
5. Buff the dark stain off evenly using brown tripoli. If there are any remaining scratches, buff them out now.
6. Sand again using the same piece of worn out 400. You should be wearing a cotton glove on your non sanding hand or the sweat from your hand will reanimate the stain dust and put color back on the pipe. This is the most important step to achieve high contrast, so sand carefully and evenly.
7. Stain over the dark stain with a lighter stain (I usually use Yellow) and try to do it in one single pass. Do not overlap your strokes if you can avoid it or you'll lift the dark stain and create one uniform mottled color. You don't want that.
8. Take the same pipecleaner, dip it in a little shellac that's been cut with alcohol and apply a single coat of shellac to the pipe. You can let it set up and dry, or you can wipe it off. If you wipe it off, though, you'll lighten the color significantly.
9. With a different tripoli wheel that's very lightly charged with compound, buff the pipe lightly. You should not remove any color, here. It should just give the pipe a nice even shine.
10. Buff with white diamond.
11. Buff with wax at around 650 RPM's. If you buff at a higher speed with wax, you'll need to buff with a clean wheel afterwards to even the finish.

*Steps 8-11 must be done while wearing gloves or you'll never get a deep glossy finish.

TJ