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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 1:32 pm 
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I think LatakiaLover rubs newbies the wrong way sometimes. He did for me at first. But I've since had a few conversations with him at pipe shows and interactions off the forum. I wouldn't take his comments to be condescending, and I don't think he means any disrespect. He's just done this stuff long enough to be efficient with what needs to be said. Sometimes, the efficiency comes across as condescension. That being said, I've learned when he speaks, it's worth my time to hear him out, because he's right annoyingly often.

As for Wayne's point, I agree those are most likely tearout or chatter. Briar doesn't turn at all like metals. Flaws have a different pattern in briar. When there's tearout on briar, it isn't always visible before stain, especially if dust fills the pores. Some people like to apply a little bit of stain during sanding to reveal tooling marks.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 2:25 pm 
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slowroll wrote:
To Wayne teipen: thanks for ur further observations I will take them on board. Regarding tool marks, your circled ones on the bowl are some of the dark stain blotches, no nicks or depressions. On the shank, RIght near the ring they are mostl also blotches. there are a couple of pinholes, the reason for which escapes me, because they seem to be too uniform in shape to be tear-outs.


Dude, there's no such thing as "blotches".

We've stained 1000 more pipes than you. Our pipes don't look like that. Now. (At one point they did!) It's fucking tool marks if we say it's fucking tool marks. It's tool marks. Tear out and sanding issues both.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 2:47 pm 
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Sasquatch wrote:
slowroll wrote:
To Wayne teipen: thanks for ur further observations I will take them on board. Regarding tool marks, your circled ones on the bowl are some of the dark stain blotches, no nicks or depressions. On the shank, RIght near the ring they are mostl also blotches. there are a couple of pinholes, the reason for which escapes me, because they seem to be too uniform in shape to be tear-outs.


Dude, there's no such thing as "blotches".

We've stained 1000 more pipes than you. Our pipes don't look like that. Now. (At one point they did!) It's fucking tool marks if we say it's fucking tool marks. It's tool marks. Tear out and sanding issues both.


Sasquatch, are you implying that when I say there is no roughness, pinholes, or scratches when I feel those dark spots or look at them in a bright oblique light that I am misleading you? What the hell are you saying "if we say it tool marks it's tool marks?" A pipe expert I may not be, but I'm not blind. It's dark stain that I didn't get sanded off because it would have caused a depression. Now that would have been tool marks. I just figured it was softer than the surrounding briar and the stain went deeper, so I left it. If they were tool marks I'd have concurred. Back off a bit and listen to yourself. Jeez, I thought you were one of the reasonable and helpful people; brusque, but reasonable. Are you trying to change my opinion?


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 2:57 pm 
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Jeremiah Sandahl--Thanks for you comments. I will use more of the staining to check approach. Unfortunately those pinholes appeared as I was turning to final dimension, so no room to sand more off. Regards to your other comments, efficient critique is acceptable but can be still be.civil. Please re-read his post. It was condescending to an extreme as if addressing a 12 year old in shop class.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 3:05 pm 
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I don't care what you think of me. I don't care if you think I'm rude. I don't care if you think I'm a total asshole.

I've offered more philosophy than direct "this pipe" type criticism here. The guys that have offered direct "fix this, change that" type of analysis have been greeted with excuses and denial from you.

Wayne (wdteipen) is right on here. The stuff you are seeing as blotches is blotches not because of some random fluke of briar, not because of some bizarre tendency of staining. They are blotches because they are scratched in a way that the rest of the wood isn't. Period. That's called tool marks.

Or I'm wrong, and Wayne's wrong too, and Jeremiah too.

I'm not here to be fucking nice to you, I'm here to offer an opinion which is reasonably expert about your methods and your results. If you want that opinion, cool. If you don't, it's nothing to me.

So no, I don't think you're blind. Not in that way anyhow.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 3:28 pm 
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Perspective from someone who's also new at pipe making and new to posting, but who's lurked for years, had his turn getting work ripped apart, and has read nearly every critique in the gallery: part of the reason some of the advice comes across as terse or blunt is that there have been hundreds -- if not thousands -- of drive-by posters over the years who post early pipes, get told that it looks like an early pipe, argue against every criticism leveled, and then leave without ever improving by implementing the advice and lessons given. You've gotta be like a duck and let that shit roll off your back and realize that these folks are giving their time and professional advice freely to help people improve. Keep carving, keep learning, and try to apply what these guys (and occasionally Scottie) are saying. The reason people are telling you that those spots look like toolmarks or tear out is because they know - through shared experience of working with briar for decades, carving thousands and thousands of great pipes, and critiquing work made by others.

I'll freely admit that I don't know what the fuck I'm talking about, but I'd venture to guess that perhaps tearout/toolmarks fundamentally change the wood underneath them deeper than the surface roughness - and while it may look and feel smooth and level, the stain being soaked up differently there reveals their existence and says that the wood there still is sort of traumatized in some way and would need to be pulled down further in order to stain normally. My $0.02.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 4:21 pm 
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Keep in mind that even the slightest scratches/tool marks will suck up stain different and be darker. Also consider that wood swells when stain is applied so the scratches close up a bit and may even look and feel smooth. Them there are definitely tool marks and the stuff on the shank is tear out. I'm 100% certain. I'm just trying to help you. If you don't want to listen, then I'll just stop helping you. It's not worth my time. I'm not trying to be a dick. You have to understand that the experienced guys here have seen this scenario play out many times. A new guy posts his pipe for critique. He already thinks what he's created is the greatest thing since sliced bread. He gets defensive and tells them that what they see is wrong. The experienced guys try to help him see the error of his ways. He gets more defensive and accuses the experienced guys of being condescending and whatnot. There's some back and forth and eventually new guy rage quits. All of the experienced guys are giving advice because they love pipemaking and want to see if you'll be the next Micah Cryder. You won't if you're unwilling to listen. The reason I know all of this is because I've been there. We all have. The ones that are still around making great pipes chose to listen.

In the eternally wise words of the great Rad Davis - I hope this helps.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 4:29 pm 
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Also consider that some guys that have seen this play out many, many times just opt to skip the middle parts of the scenario I posted above because it always plays out the same. That's what you are experiencing with Latakialover. He knows how this is most likely going to play out so there's no since in mincing words or sugar coating it. You'll either except it and improve or you won't and you won't benefit from the hundreds of years of knowledge on this forum.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 7:17 pm 
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Wayne teipen and Sasquatch -- Before you accuse me of of denying what you're pointing out, and being enraged at your doing so, "just like everyone else new," kindly review what I've actually said and what ypu've said. I'm denying nothing, I'm trying to understand what what you say you're seeing. You'll notice that both with this pipe and the first one I posted, when you all pointed out a flaw that I also saw, I agreed. However, If I look at something and feel something and it's as smooth as the surrounding surface, how the hell do I know it's got tool marks and the stain will penetrate more deeply, and why would there be tool marks in one small area that are completely invisible to me and aren't all the way around the bowl folllowing the lathe tool? I had tool marks on the rim of the last pipe and they were circumferential, as one would expect. You said they were there, I said i didn't see it. That's a couple of reasonable statements. Adding to it by saying "if I say they're fucking tool marks, they're fucking tool marks," is not a reasonable statement. While i'm on that topic, can someone tell me how tool scrapes can be invisible to sight and feel until they're stained, and still not show up but the fact that they don't sand the same as the surrounding area? How do I find them?
Regarding my questions as to your esthetic judgements, how else can I comprehend what the determined standards are unless I describe my thought process and ask what your subjective reasons are? That is not denying yur expertise, it's asking for clarification. It seems what Sasquatch is saying is that I should tug my forelock and ask no questions lest I be accused of impertinence and doubting your collective expertise. My experience of learning is getting the how and why.
I understand that you're giving of your time, and I have aid I appreciate it. If you don't have the time for a particular reply, just say so. If you've got the time to piss on my leg, you've got the time to reply cogently.
And, saying that you've all seen this before so you've just cutting to the chase is ensuring that it's going to continue to happen. That logic is rather like the philosophy of USMC boot camp --make 'em miserable so they fail fast, I've been there, one doesn't expect it in a forum. If you don't want queries from the unwashed and impertinent newbies, say so in a topic rules section, don't leave it unwritten for the unwary; unless of course that's the goal-- keeping membership limited.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 8:47 pm 
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I'm going to indulge myself here, ordinarily I walk away from this kind of silly shit, but it's been awhile. So. I quote:

"those are just highlights from the flash angle" - denial

"the darker spots are apparently softer bits that absorbed more, but weren't really grain lines" - just wrong

" but I don't think it approaches freehand ish" - denial

" worked in all manner of things that the student wanted to play to keep it interesting" - this is you telling LL to be a better teacher. Just straight asshole.

" Regarding tool marks, your circled ones on the bowl are some of the dark stain blotches, no nicks or depressions. On the shank, RIght near the ring they are mostl also blotches. there are a couple of pinholes, the reason for which escapes me, because they seem to be too uniform in shape to be tear-outs." - further denial even though wayne pointed out exactly what was going on and where. I can SEE the sanding marks on the bowl. I can see them. I. Can. See. Them. If you can't, well, geez.

" It's dark stain that I didn't get sanded off " - again, you just refuse to there's something wrong with your initial sanding job.

These are all taken from different posts, and yeah, I'm cherry picking. You asked. I have marked three areas on the bowl which look like a tiny bear attacked them? Perhaps you have a tiny shop-bear infestation? Because, after all... it isn't tool marks.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 9:15 pm 
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I'm out.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 9:47 pm 
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OK Sas, I have to respond to this gratuitous post where you are calling me both an assholes and in denial. You are interpreting my remarks the way you want to. I did not imply that LLC needed to be a better teacher, I was saying that i felt that as long as I was doing pipes that were geometric I didn't necessarily need to do strictly exercises since geometry is geometry and useful experience wise. The piano teacher allowed one to do some of what one wanted to keep it interesting, I'm doing what I feel is interesting. I didn't imply that LL should be a better teacher, I meant that MY exercises were my choices for that interest, not what he should instruct. I think I really implied that if he couldn't be civil, don't bother. You read into that what wasn't there.

I said the reason for those pinholes escapes me because they seem to be so uniform. That's not denial, that's questing. Do you see the difference?

Regarding the noted black blotches. I did say that I didn't sand them out because then there would have been low spots. I admitted I didn't sand them further, that's not denying my lousy sanding job as you put it. I said I didn't and I said why. Let's talk about your bear tracks. Do you notice that the small round marks inside the black spots are the same as the small round marks elsewhere all over the properly light areas? It's part of the wood pattern, those little dots are everywhere and they are smooth when looked at in any light and any touch. I have been merely trying to ensure that we are seeing the same things. You will notice that I freely admit when something is amiss, I don't understand why you insist on finding resistance and denial when I am asking questions like "Why would those small black spots be tool marks when they are not rough or holed, what causes that?"
if the real reason for all this vituperation is that I am not being properly deferential by asking clarifications, then say so, and I'll not waste all of your and my time any longer. If so, be sure to post a warning to all in this topic heading that all who newly post are advised to take all opprobrium with respect and silence and do it by the numbers. Then, all contentiousness will be eliminated. Have you noticed that the rate of new posts seems to be less than earlier years? Might be a reason for that.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 10:53 pm 
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Go on to the greatness you deserve. :thumbsup:




Oh, and....


those are tool marks.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 10:54 pm 
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PS anybody else have tiny shop bears, cuz I think I might have an infestation too....

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 11:29 pm 
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Sasquatch wrote:
PS anybody else have tiny shop bears, cuz I think I might have an infestation too....


Couldn't resist one last parting personal insult, you arrogant boor, could you? I would expect this from a political forum, but a craft man's forum? Sad. I expect you feel much better now.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 11:49 pm 
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Actually, I was offering a sort of sideways commiseration - I often find sanding scratches even after I'm totally sure that I've sanded perfect. And... they look just like little tiny bear-claws. I suspect there's not a person on this board who hasn't seen exactly the same thing.

But since you don't have sanding scratches, you just can't relate.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 12:38 am 
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Why did it take all this vituperation coupled with insults for you to describe that? You, sir, appear to have a personality disorder .


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 1:15 am 
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Thank you, please come again.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 1:21 am 
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I’m pretty sure we have the same shop bears here.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 1:45 am 
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