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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 9:40 pm 
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IAWS

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 11:00 pm 
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LatakiaLover wrote:
IAWS


Forgive my ignorance. What's IAWS? Can't figure it out


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 11:02 pm 
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I Agree With Sandahl
DocAitch

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 11:06 pm 
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Or Mr. Sasquatch.

In this case it was both.

(I guess Sandahl needs to be Sp since Sas has been here longer)

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 11:20 pm 
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slowroll wrote:
Sas, thanks for that detailed explanation. I apprehend it took some effort. The major problem for guys like me is of what you speak is rather subtle and clear to mostly the cognoscenti. For example , the 2 pipes above, the issues to me are only that the stem line on the first pipe is more refined, as is the stem/shank transition curve. To me the rest is subjective style (I don't particularly Care for either one :? ). I wish you had the time to tell me what 50 things could be different on the pipe I showed; that would be instructive, albeit ponderous for you. I didn't think there were 50 things to consider in total, let alone do differently. :shock: BTW, I'm glad to hear about tending toward Danish style, I do like many of the old Danish pipe styles (except for a lot of the freehands)
Cheers.


Well, you hit on a bunch of stuff here.... let's see. "clear to mostly the cognoscenti" is apt - it took me literally years of asking for critique and basically failing to understand it, or understand only snatches of it, and it was obvious that the guys I was talking to knew more than me - so much more that they could easily overwhelm me with ideas I didn't understand, and so I added things piece by piece (actually I wound up going right back to the start - make a billiard, make it "right" and see what happens). There are ideas of universal beauty (symmetry, curvature and proportion). Look up "french curve". Look up "Golden Ratio". (It's the curves on the (my posted) second pipe that are terrible, along with the stuff you mentioned).

As to something being "right" or "good", that's not the same as liking it. And I think this is where people get confused. I like big, solid, blasted pipes, that's just about all I have, and all I've ever wanted. But that doesn't mean I have to say bad things about small smooth pipes! So there's this crossover between what you like and what is well rendered - you can imagine four quadrants - well rendered and "I like", well rendered and "I don't like", and of course, poorly rendered and I like, and poorly rendered and I don't like. The most difficult quadrant to assess is the second - well made but I don't like - that's tough to quantify.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 10:42 am 
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Sasquatch wrote:
I showed this picture set elsewhere - this pipe here...

Image

is technically and artistically a better pipe than this here:

Image

And every experienced maker here would tell you exactly the same things about each.

So this is really interesting to me. Not to derail things too much, but I'm at a point that I can tell that the top pipe is more aesthetically pleasing and better shaped, but I can't pinpoint exactly why.

I'd love to hear more from those of you who know what you're doing and what you're talking about regarding why - specifically - that top one is so much more pleasing?

What jumps out to me is the weight being moved further behind the bowl, the flatter line through the front, the tighter angle/radius in the transition, and smoother and more deliberate looking lines... is that the bulk of it?

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 11:18 am 
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Sas, again thanks for the time spent on that reply. certainly I don't disagree with anything you just wrote. I'm familiar with the golden ratio and french curves. Symmetry and flowing lines are of course the essence of good design in any thing; as in airplanes, it is said, "if it looks right, it is right." Regarding the pipes you posted, I can see that from a design perspective the bottom curve around the front of the bowl to the bottom of the shank is not a smooth flow, it has a bit of an inflection point. I would assume that dealing with curved lines on a pipe one should aim for the first derivative to remain the same around the curve. that said, I suppose there are times when some departures are acceptable depending on a particular look desired. I would like to have a bit of an esthetics discussion about an item or 2, but I'll leave it rest for a bit to clarify my thoughts and give eeryone else a break for a couple days from mentoring efforts. I'll bring it up in this thread. The dialog might be helpful for others of questing dispositions.
cheers


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 11:19 am 
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Quote:
Re the ring--do you mean the outer radius should be smaller to bring it closer to the shank/stem radius? And regarding the bowl/shank transition, do you mean the transition radius should be less--a sharper gradient?

Yes, on both counts.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 11:22 am 
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charl, thanks for clarification.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 5:49 pm 
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I think the bottom pipe of my two there is less pleasing for a bunch of reasons. It looks a little stretched, a bit too much shank and the curve of the "bell" style bowl shape is not very good, it's elongated and ugly because of it. Curve here, no curve there, curve here... no real flow. A bunch of ideas that could work together but basically weren't worked together very adeptly.

So the balance is off physically and visually, the pipe doesn't know whether it's a bell or a dublin, doesn't know whether it's heavy or lean, it's uncomfortably both in various spots.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 12:45 am 
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Well, that's a good tutorial Sas. There's some food for thought.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 9:06 pm 
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I have few to almost no posts but please trust me when i say that if you keep reading here specially other reviews you will change the way you see pipes.

Before i would like both pipes, i would also buy the first with no doubt. And now I really find it ugly and with some unfinished parts. The diference is huge. And that diference you will only see if you keep reading here.
I also know that there is still a way to go but i will only improve if i try to see what they see and try to undestand the flow a pipe must have like they do.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 1:31 am 
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I really like where you're going with this shape. I also agree with most of the critique you've received so far. I see minor bulges and waviness in the shank. I see the dip on the bottom that you pointed out. I also see quite a few tool marks on the stummel. The stain on the rim is blotchy and slightly so on the bowl in a couple places. The shank ring is too thick and proud which leaves it aesthetically heavy especially on such a dainty shape.

Duckbill stems aren't wrong. On some shapes it is quite appealing and I agree that they are usually more comfortable. If not done right, I agree that they look amateurish. On this pipe, I don't think it works quite as well aesthetically. I think the reason it doesn't work may be because it starts to pinch too close to the shank instead of tapering a bit and then pinching or gradually pinching if that makes sense. I've actually been using duckbill tapers on some shapes as of late. Here's one for example:
Image

As you can see on this pipe, the stem tapers short then flattens out on the last 1/3 or so of the stem towards the button.

The last thing on your pipe that I think could be improved is the width of your rings. For me, they are too wide. I'm not aware of any turning tools off the shelf that aren't too wide. You'll have to make your own if you want a thinner one. I ground down a long allen wrench and use a pair of vise grips as a handle. I think mine is a touch too thin and at some point I'll make a new one.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 12:51 pm 
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wdteipen -- thanks for the time you took to make your observations, I appreciate it. I have a couple of comments/questions re some of it. The blotchy appearance of some of the stain- that came from the darker stain first applied to bring out the grain, and the darker spots are apparently softer bits that absorbed more, but weren't really grain lines. they didn't sand off well, and I didn't want to sand more so close to sharp edges, or risk low spots. How does one avoid that, or does it just happen with some pieces of briar? Tool marks---trust me--that's just flash rellections from shiny stuff hanging above the pipe (copper pot rack). If there were tool marks, i'd admit it. :wink: You have a point about the start area of the slope change of a duckbill, I'll try that. re the width of the rings, I suppose narrower could be better, no problem making another tool, i can just narrow the one I made.

Esthetic question: some of you have critiqued the the radius of the bowl/shank transition and the radius of the bowl front to bottom transition. Here was my thinking about that, please tell me where I'm artistically mistaken (BTW, my wife, a fine arts major, advised me, I'm an engineer, not an artist). I felt that given the sharp geometric angles of the stacked cones, it needed a noticeable curve in those areas to soften the geometry, and not look like a tube stuck onto a funnel.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 2:44 pm 
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I think that one of Sas' comments is apt here.
The concept that you started with is that of an amalgamation of geometric shapes. Two truncated cones for the bowl and a cylinder for the shank. Your transition with the large radii and "sweep" is free handish.
This pipe hasn't decided whether it is a geometrically rigid " standard shape" or a free hand.
I personally would prefer it to be more true to the geometric concept, with the truncated cone and the cylinder holding their lines through the transition, with only a small radius to connect them, similar to a nice poker, which is basically two cylinders. I know you are resisting that concept, but for "standard" shapes, it works for me.
Perhaps one of the guys would comment on that (whether I am on the right track or not).
DocAitch

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-Charles Hollyday, pipe maker, reluctant mentor, and curmudgeon
" Never show an idiot an unfinished pipe!"- same guy


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 3:23 pm 
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Doc, I comprehend your visual appearance opinion, but I don't think it approaches freehand ish. In my mind, that would be much more swept and indeed inappropriate. I rather thought it softened the sharp geometry. Is it not true that more acute radii would make it look harder? I really didn't want poker-ish--too much angular geometry.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 4:02 pm 
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I think you need to give this train-stack thing a rest and just make some classic shapes to develop your eye and shop skills.

New piano students aren't expected to write music for a long time. They play exercises and music that's already written so that strengths and weaknesses can be measured by their teachers.

Making tobacco pipes---GOOD pipes, not craft fair stuff---is no different.

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"Not once has a customer looked at one of my pipes and said, 'I like this pipe, but wish you had made the stem an hour faster'... I want every stem to be perfect" --- Adam Davidson


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 4:29 pm 
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slowroll wrote:
wdteipen -- thanks for the time you took to make your observations, I appreciate it. I have a couple of comments/questions re some of it. The blotchy appearance of some of the stain- that came from the darker stain first applied to bring out the grain, and the darker spots are apparently softer bits that absorbed more, but weren't really grain lines. they didn't sand off well, and I didn't want to sand more so close to sharp edges, or risk low spots. How does one avoid that, or does it just happen with some pieces of briar? Tool marks---trust me--that's just flash rellections from shiny stuff hanging above the pipe (copper pot rack). If there were tool marks, i'd admit it. :wink: You have a point about the start area of the slope change of a duckbill, I'll try that. re the width of the rings, I suppose narrower could be better, no problem making another tool, i can just narrow the one I made.

Esthetic question: some of you have critiqued the the radius of the bowl/shank transition and the radius of the bowl front to bottom transition. Here was my thinking about that, please tell me where I'm artistically mistaken (BTW, my wife, a fine arts major, advised me, I'm an engineer, not an artist). I felt that given the sharp geometric angles of the stacked cones, it needed a noticeable curve in those areas to soften the geometry, and not look like a tube stuck onto a funnel.


Look closer in good light. Here are three areas with tool marks: Image

These are the most obvious. There are more. You have tool marks on the rim that encircle the rim. To remedy the blotchiness on the rim you just need to sand carefully with high grit.

As for your esthetic question: sometimes mixing different concepts like soft and curvy and sharp defined lines doesn't work. Oftentimes, picking a concept and carrying it through the entire piece works best. For your shank/bowl transition, you have defined geometry in the bowl then defined geometry in the shank conceptually. Linking the two with a soft curvy transition just doesn't work as well. The transition doesn't have to be sharp; it just needs to be a bit better defined for a harmonious composition.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 11:56 am 
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LatakiaLover wrote:
I think you need to give this train-stack thing a rest and just make some classic shapes to develop your eye and shop skills.

New piano students aren't expected to write music for a long time. They play exercises and music that's already written so that strengths and weaknesses can be measured by their teachers.

Making tobacco pipes---GOOD pipes, not craft fair stuff---is no different.


Well, You've touched on a couple of things I know about. I'm not trying to be alfred dunhill, I'm trying to make a few pipes that I want to have, then decide if i want to seriously pursue more and more. Making vsriations on standard geometries will provide plenty of practise I should think. I'm not exactly trying to do blowfish and wiggly eels wherein anything goes so to speak. I took piano lessons for quite a while, and after the very basics the teacher worked in all manner of things that the student wanted to play to keep it interesting.
As far as shop skills, what I need is to become familiar with how briar works differently from steel or aluminum. I've been fabricating precision parts for aircraft for a long time using lathes, milling machines and English wheel. Many of these parts have been functioning for over 25 years quite nicely. I understand the harmonic scales of shop work quite adequately.
What I do see from this and many other posts I have obserserved is that you are about as condescending as one human can be in your efforts to drive new people away from this forum. The esteemed founder of this forum, Tyler Lane, has opined on the levels of civil discourse and you apparently ignore that. I noticed that there are a number of people who have posted a few times and post no longer after being the beneficiary of your wisdom.

I want to make it clear that this diatribe is aimed solely at LL and no other member of this forum, who in the main have been very civil and instructive, albeit a little brusque at times; but thats's alright. Brusque is OK, condescending is not.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 12:02 pm 
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To Wayne teipen: thanks for ur further observations I will take them on board. Regarding tool marks, your circled ones on the bowl are some of the dark stain blotches, no nicks or depressions. On the shank, RIght near the ring they are mostl also blotches. there are a couple of pinholes, the reason for which escapes me, because they seem to be too uniform in shape to be tear-outs.


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